From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sun Nov 1 11:27:19 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA74243 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:27:19 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA98113 for linux-list; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:26:53 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA93643 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:26:52 -0800 (PST) mail_from (rmk@shell.mdc.net) Received: from netway1.mdc.net (netway1.mdc.net [206.66.240.2]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id LAA07638 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:26:49 -0800 (PST) mail_from (rmk@shell.mdc.net) Received: from shell.mdc.net (rmk@shell.mdc.net [206.66.240.208]) by netway1.mdc.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA07055 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (rmk@localhost) by shell.mdc.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA15452 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:22:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:22:51 -0500 (EST) From: 4819 To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: status of X? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 162 Lines: 5 what is the current status of Xfree on the indy? Is it working yet, and if so where can I get it. If not, what do I need to do in order to run the Xsgi server? From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sun Nov 1 19:53:15 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA07070 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:53:15 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA63852 for linux-list; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:52:14 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from oz.engr.sgi.com (oz.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.13]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA01929 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:52:11 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from ariel@localhost) by oz.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA35937 for linux@engr.sgi.com; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:52:11 -0800 (PST) From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-Id: <199811020352.TAA35937@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: booting problems (forward) To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (SGI/Linux mailing list) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:52:11 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1856 Lines: 48 [Forwarding a bounced message ] :From: Luke Deller :To: adevries@engsoc.carleton.ca :Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:33:18 +1100 (EST) :X-Sender: luked@ganter.disy.cse.unsw.EDU.AU :cc: linux@engr.sgi.com :Subject: mips linux :Message-ID: :MIME-Version: 1.0 :Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII : :Hi, : :We have installed linux on an SGI Indy with no level 2 cache. :As requested in a README file, i'm letting you guys know how we went. : :There was an untested kernel in: :ftp.linux.sgi.com:/pub/test/vmlinux-indy-noL2-2.1.72.tar.gz :We tried this kernel and it didn't work. The screen went black, so it looks :like it got into console mode ok, but there was no text output at all. : :We have successfully booted linux using the kernel in: :ftp.linux.sgi.com:/pub/test/vmlinux-indy-noL2-971208.tar.gz : :There was one problem that we encountered with the simple filesystem in: :ftp.linux.sgi.com:/pub/mips-linux/GettingStarted/root-be-0.04.cpio.gz :It is missing libz.so, so "rpm" couldn't run. We had to use an x86 linux :box to extract the zlib rpm so that we could extract other rpms on the mips :box. : :If you would like us to test any more mips-linux kernels for an indy with no :level 2 cache, please don't hesitate to email me. : :Luke. : :-------------------------------------------------------------------------- : Luke Deller luked@cse.unsw.edu.au : _--_|\ Computer Engineering student :/ \ School of Computer Science and Engineering ? ? ? ? :\_.--._* The University of New South Wales ~~^^~ : v Sydney, NSW 2052 AUSTRALIA o o :-------------------------------------------------------ooO--(_)--Ooo------ : -- Peace, Ariel From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sun Nov 1 21:06:42 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id VAA11655 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:06:41 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id VAA95021 for linux-list; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:06:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from oz.engr.sgi.com (oz.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.13]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id VAA34081 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:06:02 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from ariel@localhost) by oz.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id VAA37591; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:06:01 -0800 (PST) From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-Id: <199811020506.VAA37591@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: The Holloween Document (fwd) To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (SGI/Linux mailing list) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:06:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2491 Lines: 59 [This is significant. It details an internal (and confidential) Microsoft sanctioned memo on how to fight the Open Source movement and Mainly Linux. ] Read carefully and Please distribute widely. The document is long I just quote some crucial parts of it] http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are some notable quotes from the document, ``OSS'' is the author's abbreviation for ``Open Source Software''. Vinod Valloppillil (VinodV) Aug 11, 1998 ¨C v1.00 Microsoft Confidential [only a few excerpts follow, read the link above for the full details.] * OSS poses a direct, short-term revenue and platform threat to Microsoft, particularly in server space. Additionally, the intrinsic parallelism and free idea exchange in OSS has benefits that are not replicable with our current licensing model and therefore present a long term developer mindshare threat. * Recent case studies (the Internet) provide very dramatic evidence ... that commercial quality can be achieved / exceeded by OSS projects. * ...to understand how to compete against OSS, we [Microsoft] must target a *process* rather than a company. * OSS is long-term credible ... FUD tactics can not be used to combat it. * Linux and other OSS advocates are making a progressively more credible argument that OSS software is at least as robust ¨C if not more ¨C than commercial alternatives. The Internet provides an ideal, high-visibility showcase for the OSS world. * Linux has been deployed in mission critical, commercial environments with an excellent pool of public testimonials. ... Linux outperforms many other UNIXes ... Linux is on track to eventually own the x86 UNIX market ... * Linux can win as long as services / protocols are commodities. * OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market. * The ability of the OSS process to collect and harness the collective IQ of thousands of individuals across the Internet is simply amazing. More importantly, OSS evangelization scales with the size of the Internet much faster than our own evangelization efforts appear to scale. -- Peace, Ariel From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 16:20:51 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA22618 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:51 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA11747 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:10 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA13222 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:08 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id QAA08410 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-26.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.26]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11229 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:19:59 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981028132004.A2100@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:20:04 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Challenge S question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 143 Lines: 4 Short question, the Challenge S is headless. Does it still have the keyboard controller and keyboard and mouse ports in the hardware? Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 16:20:55 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA95658 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:54 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA19387 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:21:09 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA49645 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:21:07 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id QAA09200 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:27 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-26.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.26]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11431 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:20:22 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981027165858.D358@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:58:58 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Warner Losh , linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: MIPS R3230? References: <36350DB4.3CC01730@xmission.com> <199810262335.QAA12729@harmony.village.org> <36350DB4.3CC01730@xmission.com> <199810270544.WAA14203@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199810270544.WAA14203@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Mon, Oct 26, 1998 at 10:44:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 901 Lines: 23 On Mon, Oct 26, 1998 at 10:44:40PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <36350DB4.3CC01730@xmission.com> Eric Jorgensen writes: > : Scratch that. I have a 2030 and a 3240. But I don't use either of them. > : I'd love to use the 3240 tho. > > I see... > > : On the other hand, I don't have a complete distribution of RISCos on > : either of them. They both mounted most of the /usr tree (or whatever it > : is on riscos) via NFS, some machine they can't talk to anymore. > > Hmmm. That's too bad. I'd dup the two QIC-150 tapes that I have, but > I don't want to violate anybody's IP. All Mips Computer Systems, Inc machines were sold including the license for the OS, duplicating the tapes should be ok. I cc this to linux@engr.sgi.com, maybe one of them wants to comment. Also, it's in general a good idea because on that list are engineers that were working on these machines. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 16:20:51 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA99120 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:51 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA21149 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:21:00 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA15971 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:58 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id QAA07316 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:49 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-26.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.26]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11597 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:20:46 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981027170306.E358@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:03:06 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Warner Losh , linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: MIPS R3230? References: <199810270544.WAA14203@harmony.village.org> <36350DB4.3CC01730@xmission.com> <199810262335.QAA12729@harmony.village.org> <199810270544.WAA14203@harmony.village.org> <199810270548.WAA14350@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199810270548.WAA14350@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Mon, Oct 26, 1998 at 10:48:10PM -0700 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 670 Lines: 15 On Mon, Oct 26, 1998 at 10:48:10PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > I do have one specific question that doesn't appear to be in the > hardware reference. Can someone help me on where to find the entry > points to the MIPS ROM/firmware? I've not been able to find a vector > table or anything like that in my hunting trought the hardware > reference manual. Checkout the arch/mips/mips/ directory in the CVS. Long time ago there were files in that directory which were generating PROM stubs, all based on information from /usr/include/ of RISC/os 5.00. Since nothing was using these stubs for a long time I deleted them, you'll have to rescue them from Attic/. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 16:20:54 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA16516 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:53 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA20594 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:21:08 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA20611 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:21:06 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id QAA09090 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:20:56 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-26.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.26]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11656 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:20:54 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981104175235.A16320@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:52:35 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: RM200 and more Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1963 Lines: 39 Hi all, Something is very fishy with the RM200 (E)ISA interrupt handler code. Sympthom was that some time we loose (E)ISA interrupts which essentially is almost equivalent to a crash since without timer interrupt there isn't very much left to loose ... What I observed was that the 8259 PICs stop signaling interrupts to the processor however if I poll them for interrupts they tell me there'd be an interrupt. In some cases not all interrupts are dead an another interrupt may resurrect the dead ones. For a user this bug was visible as strange hangs from which the machine may recover by for example hitting a key or telneting to the machine. This bug affects all RM200C kernels since at least 2.1.73, probably even longer. No idea what's the cause for this. I've done a major overhaul of the keyboard stuff. Essentially my current 2.1.126 based kernel has the MIPS keyboard stuff redone completly. For the first time without CONFIG_STUPID system and flexible enough to add about any new port with non-standard keyboard controller interface like the Algorithmics P4032 board. During that I found the probably oldest Linux/MIPS bug, __delay has a wrong operand to multu resulting usually in way to short delay loops which on some machines may result in funny keyboard messages or even the keyboard not being detected. Another effect is that now the PS/2 mouse of the RM200 works. I've hacked the NCR 53C8xx driver back into usability. It works on my two NCR based systems but I'd never call that thing reliable because I know how horribly hacked my source is. Anyway since it seems to be usable I'll commit it. I just found that I accidently never commited the uaccess.h file with my module fixes to CVS, so modules built from the CVS source can in most cases not be loaded due to relocation overflows. Modutils have bug which prevents them from building on little endian machines. I've fixed that one just like two other modutil bugs. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 10:41:30 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA73637 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:41:29 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id KAA54136 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:40:38 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA74247 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:40:36 -0800 (PST) mail_from (mikehill@hgeng.com) Received: from calvin.tor.onramp.ca (calvin.tor.onramp.ca [204.225.88.15]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via SMTP id KAA02734 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:40:35 -0800 (PST) mail_from (mikehill@hgeng.com) Received: (qmail 20235 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1998 18:40:33 -0000 Received: from imail.hgeng.com (HELO bart.hgeng.com) (199.246.72.233) by mail.onramp.ca with SMTP; 4 Nov 1998 18:40:33 -0000 Received: by BART with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:46:28 -0500 Message-ID: <60222E63C9F4D011915F00A02435011C27B9C3@BART> From: Mike Hill To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Another Success Report Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:46:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 670 Lines: 21 An exciting week here: 1) I booted the Hardhat distribution from my own local hard drive for the first time (had done this before using a drive belonging to Alex); 2) natively compiled a mips kernel for the first time; 3) saw the bottom of my screen for the first time (re-sized to 126x46 in bootinfo.h). Thanks to Alex, Ulf, Thomas and Ralf (as well as the authors of previous success reports) for their suggestions. If anyone needed to know, I could probably re-create the procedure I used. The kernel I compiled was the 2.1.100 packaged with Hardhat; does anyone else get coloured stripes across the screen with later kernels (116, 117, 121)? Thanks, Mike From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 16:42:21 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA23226 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:42:21 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA09539 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:41:49 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from piecomputer.engr.sgi.com (piecomputer.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.62]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA18612 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:41:47 -0800 (PST) mail_from (mende@piecomputer.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from mende@localhost) by piecomputer.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA02949; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:41:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:41:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811050041.QAA02949@piecomputer.engr.sgi.com> From: Bob Mende Pie To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de CC: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-reply-to: <19981028132004.A2100@uni-koblenz.de> (ralf@uni-koblenz.de) Subject: Re: Challenge S question Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 877 Lines: 25 > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:20:04 +0100 > From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 > Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu > Precedence: bulk > > Short question, the Challenge S is headless. Does it still have the > keyboard controller and keyboard and mouse ports in the hardware? > > Ralf > It should. The challenge/S is a indy with the following changes. . Pull the graphics card out of it. . Put an IOplus card where the graphics card goes. An ioplus has two WD33C95A controlers on it and a 2nd eithernet that is the same type as the onboard ec0 but is IDed as ec3. . Put diffrent sheetmetal on the back of the box so the connectors on the IOplus line up with holes. /Bob... mailto:mende@sgi.com http://reality.sgi.com/mende KF6EID From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 17:03:15 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA35710 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:03:15 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA96333 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:02:01 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from fir.engr.sgi.com (fir.engr.sgi.com [150.166.61.141]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id RAA33624; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:01:22 -0800 (PST) mail_from (wje@fir.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from wje@localhost) by fir.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA02999; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:59:52 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:59:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199811050059.QAA02999@fir.engr.sgi.com> From: "William J. Earl" To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de Cc: Warner Losh , linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: MIPS R3230? In-Reply-To: <19981027165858.D358@uni-koblenz.de> References: <36350DB4.3CC01730@xmission.com> <199810262335.QAA12729@harmony.village.org> <199810270544.WAA14203@harmony.village.org> <19981027165858.D358@uni-koblenz.de> Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 995 Lines: 22 ralf@uni-koblenz.de writes: > On Mon, Oct 26, 1998 at 10:44:40PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > In message <36350DB4.3CC01730@xmission.com> Eric Jorgensen writes: ... > > : On the other hand, I don't have a complete distribution of RISCos on > > : either of them. They both mounted most of the /usr tree (or whatever it > > : is on riscos) via NFS, some machine they can't talk to anymore. > > > > Hmmm. That's too bad. I'd dup the two QIC-150 tapes that I have, but > > I don't want to violate anybody's IP. > > All Mips Computer Systems, Inc machines were sold including the license > for the OS, duplicating the tapes should be ok. Yes, the MIPS systems were sold with an OS license (for use on that machine). The license includes UNIX and NFS licenses. I believe that the 3230 and 3240 used QIC-150, but I think some M/120 systems had only QIC-120. (The QIC-150 reads both kinds of cartridge, but the QIC-120 of course cannot read the QIC-150 tape.) From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 17:32:07 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA49819 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:32:07 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA52164 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:31:34 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA50963 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:31:31 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id RAA05212 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:31:30 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-26.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.26]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA09412 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:31:24 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02594; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:30:15 +0100 Message-ID: <19981105023015.K359@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:30:15 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux-mips@fnet.fr Subject: GDB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 155 Lines: 5 I found that by accident GDB and the kernel were using different ptrace(2) interfaces. After fixing that for example ``info registers'' works ok. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 4 18:15:31 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA45261 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:15:30 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA62881 for linux-list; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:14:50 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA72979; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:14:47 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id SAA05979; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:14:45 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-26.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.26]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA26118; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:14:30 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA02726; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:13:25 +0100 Message-ID: <19981105031325.P359@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:13:25 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Ariel Faigon , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Linus is down ? (fwd) References: <199810310228.SAA34114@oz.engr.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199810310228.SAA34114@oz.engr.sgi.com>; from Ariel Faigon on Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 06:28:50PM -0800 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 360 Lines: 10 On Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 06:28:50PM -0800, Ariel Faigon wrote: > linus had many memory parity errors (most fixed by the CPU, but > one eventually failed) this afternoon which caused it to hang. > David rebooted it and will be replacing the bad SIMM early next week. Which reminds me that we don't handle cache errors and other desaster events at all. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sat Nov 7 18:37:36 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA64988 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:37:36 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA23168 for linux-list; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:36:07 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA23894 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:36:03 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id SAA00603 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:36:02 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-13.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.13]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA14763 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 03:35:43 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18312; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:41:31 +0100 Message-ID: <19981105104129.A3581@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:41:29 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Warner Losh , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Prices on Indy References: <199810292231.PAA17553@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199810292231.PAA17553@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Thu, Oct 29, 1998 at 03:31:32PM -0700 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 879 Lines: 18 On Thu, Oct 29, 1998 at 03:31:32PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > I'm looking at a couple of Indy machines that have 50MHz R4400 CPUs in > them. What's the going price for this? There is no memory or disks > or much of anything else included with these machines. What's a good > price? The person I'm talking to wants $210 > > Also, I have a chance to get full systems (with 80M-128M memory, > 500M-1G disk) for $525. This includes monitors, etc. I have no real orientation about workstation second hand prices. An Indy R5000SC 180MHz, 64mb, 17" Monitor and unknown gfx option is being advertised for around DEM 5000 (DEM 1.65 == USD 1) including tax by second hand workstation dealers here in Germany. You should be able to get a second hand Indy much cheaper than that since most people will orient their prices on PCs which have ridiculuous second hand prices. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 08:28:13 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA09195 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:28:13 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id IAA89545 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:27:37 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA70170; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:27:32 -0800 (PST) mail_from (richardm@bif.cd.com) Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id IAA07349; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:27:31 -0800 (PST) mail_from (richardm@bif.cd.com) Received: from bif.cd.com (bif [204.217.30.130]) by beltway.cd.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA25385; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:26:59 -0600 (CST) Received: by bif.cd.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA07758; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:27:22 -0600 From: richardm@bif.cd.com (Richard Masoner) Message-Id: <199811051627.KAA07758@bif.cd.com> Subject: Re: Challenge S question To: mende@piecomputer.engr.sgi.com (Bob Mende Pie) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:27:22 -0600 (CST) Cc: ralf@uni-koblenz.de, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <199811050041.QAA02949@piecomputer.engr.sgi.com> from "Bob Mende Pie" at Nov 4, 98 04:41:46 pm Reply-To: Organization: Digi International X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 415 Lines: 17 Ralf asked: > > Short question, the Challenge S is headless. Does it still have the > > keyboard controller and keyboard and mouse ports in the hardware? And Bob answered: > It should. The two Challenge S's I've had, and the one I currently have, do not have keyboard and mouse ports. Refer to page 3-32 of the SGI Hardware Developer Handbook R2.0 for a diagram of what the Challenge S has. Richard Masoner From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 12:53:50 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA85274 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:53:50 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA63215 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:53:06 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from oz.engr.sgi.com (oz.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.13]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA60312 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:53:05 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from ariel@localhost) by oz.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA55262 for linux@engr.sgi.com; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:53:05 -0800 (PST) From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-Id: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Halloween doc II To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (SGI/Linux mailing list) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:53:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2215 Lines: 61 Hi, A second "what is Linux and how to combat it" document just came out the Microsoft leak factory: http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html It is a followup doc to the infamous "Halloween Doc" (now renamed "Halloween I"). It was leaked by an MS employee as a reaction to the recent publicity for Halloween-I. It adds the threat of Linux as a client and gives a very positive evaluation of Linux (coming from within MS, this is telling). It concludes again, with the sinister suggestions to "de-commoditize" open protocols, plus (surprise) ways to attack Linux via litigation (if you can't beat them on merit, there are always the nukes, Bill). --- There's specific interest to this community: David Miller and Miguel de Icaza are both mentioned and their SPARC comparison docs are linked from this document. No doubt, the MS guys did a great research job. There's a lot the Linux community learn from this document. Just read the "what's missing in Linux compared to NT" part and make sure it is implemented. It doesn't appear too hard. Some points which are definitely geared towards the non sophisticated users include: 1) Automounting a floppy/CD when it is inserted (BTW: IRIX mediad has been doing this for quite a while) 2) Simpler installation: e.g. rather than asking 30 questions, provide a menu like: 1) Express install: don't ask me anything, just go ahead and fill my disk. 2) Pick and chose: let me select ... 3) XFree86 installation: don't ask me what chipset I have and what's the scan rates etc. Instead have an internal mapping table between well known brand names (e.g. ATI Mach64) and the details of the card. People usually know the latter (what's written on the box, but rarely the former) 4) Simpler Network config: DHCP client installed by default Again saving complex questions to the simple user 5) Of course, a coherent consistent GUI to manage everything from HW devices to access to files etc. Those who need the simplicity, will never be willing to do command line stuff. 6) Development tools like VB/VC++ :-) Someone forward this to Red Hat / Gnome and the XFree86 teams ... -- Peace, Ariel From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 13:05:45 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA82139 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:05:45 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA63413 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:04:58 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from dataserv.columbus.sgi.com (dataserv.columbus.sgi.com [169.238.139.130]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id NAA82147 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:04:56 -0800 (PST) mail_from (david@carrera.columbus.sgi.com) Received: from carrera.columbus.sgi.com by dataserv.columbus.sgi.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/930416.SGI) id QAA26722; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:02:02 -0500 Received: (from david@localhost) by carrera.columbus.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA02095; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:00:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:00:23 -0500 (EST) From: david@carrera.columbus.sgi.com (David Watters) Message-Id: <9811051600.ZM2221@carrera.columbus.sgi.com> In-Reply-To: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) "Halloween doc II" (Nov 5, 12:53pm) References: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail-SGI (3.2S.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (SGI/Linux mailing list) Subject: Re: Halloween doc II Cc: nafose@palladium.corp.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 686 Lines: 30 It also made some high visibility press: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28397,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh On Nov 5, 12:53pm, Ariel Faigon wrote: > Subject: Halloween doc II > Hi, > > A second "what is Linux and how to combat it" document > just came out the Microsoft leak factory: > > http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html -- David Watters | Silicon*Graphics Systems Engineer | http://www.sgi.com/ Silicon Graphics, Inc.| http://reality.sgi.com/davester/ (6/13/97) david.watters@sgi.com | 1.800.800.SGI1 (Sales) 1.800.800.4SGI (Support) DID 1.614.844.3820 | http://www.nintendo.com/ (N64, the $130 SGI!) From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 13:35:26 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA94834 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:35:26 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA78736 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:34:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from oz.engr.sgi.com (oz.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.13]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA04474; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:34:51 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from ariel@localhost) by oz.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA55597; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:34:51 -0800 (PST) From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-Id: <199811052134.NAA55597@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Halloween doc II To: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:34:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: from "Alan Cox" at Nov 5, 98 10:18:34 pm Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1793 Lines: 51 : :> 1) Automounting a floppy/CD when it is inserted :> (BTW: IRIX mediad has been doing this for quite a while) : :Yeah we looked at it, and decided it sucked somewhat. Stephen Tweedie :has a slightly different scheme where you can even be sat in a directory :on a changable volume when itchanges and all is fine - its called :supermount : As I said, easy to implement -- difficult to get this as standard into mainstream distributions. Maybe this is where Red Hat / Caldera SuSE etc. need to cooperate and just make things happen. Just focus on those that are the biggest barrier of entry for the Microsoft-versed masses. If we do it, we can make great inroads into the desktop as well. Oh yeah, and of course, now that Corel is funding WINE, we may even get all the MS apps too. : :> 5) Of course, a coherent consistent GUI to manage everything :> from HW devices to access to files etc. Those who need :> the simplicity, will never be willing to do command line :> stuff. : :Have a look at linuxconf, it works, it does the job. The gui just needs a :major rethink : My thought exactly. It is the GUI what makes the non technical average user run away. Hacker don't care enough about GUI's. :> 6) Development tools like VB/VC++ :-) : :Cygnus GNUPro ;) : Good point. People who can afford paying a few hundred dollars for Visual C++ can afford Cygnus GNUPro. Not everything should be free as long as there's someone that got it right and it is available on Linux. I'm glad this reality is not even on MS's radar they just compare "bare" Linux to a fully loaded (with many additional $$$ NT client). :> Someone forward this to Red Hat / Gnome and the XFree86 teams ... : :We've all seen it. : How naive of me to even hint otherwise :-) -- Peace, Ariel From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 13:23:47 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA89070 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:23:47 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA80345 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:23:06 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA43944; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from snowcrash.cymru.net (snowcrash.cymru.net [163.164.160.3]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id NAA04011; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:23:00 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from the-village.bc.nu (lightning.swansea.uk.linux.org [194.168.151.1]) by snowcrash.cymru.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA21089; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:22:49 GMT Received: by the-village.bc.nu (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0zbXjg-0007U8C; Thu, 5 Nov 98 22:18 GMT Message-Id: From: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Subject: Re: Halloween doc II To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:18:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> from "Ariel Faigon" at Nov 5, 98 12:53:04 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1594 Lines: 49 > 1) Automounting a floppy/CD when it is inserted > (BTW: IRIX mediad has been doing this for quite a while) Yeah we looked at it, and decided it sucked somewhat. Stephen Tweedie has a slightly different scheme where you can even be sat in a directory on a changable volume when itchanges and all is fine - its called supermount > 2) Simpler installation: e.g. rather than asking 30 > questions, provide a menu like: > 1) Express install: don't ask me anything, > just go ahead and fill my disk. > 2) Pick and chose: let me select > ... Thats occured a lot > 3) XFree86 installation: don't ask me what chipset I have > and what's the scan rates etc. Instead have an internal > mapping table between well known brand names (e.g. ATI Mach64) > and the details of the card. People usually know the latter > (what's written on the box, but rarely the former) Current installers from RH and I think SuSE ask no questions for PCI installs barring optional monitor abiklity ones > 4) Simpler Network config: DHCP client installed by default > Again saving complex questions to the simple user Yep > 5) Of course, a coherent consistent GUI to manage everything > from HW devices to access to files etc. Those who need > the simplicity, will never be willing to do command line > stuff. Have a look at linuxconf, it works, it does the job. The gui just needs a major rethink > 6) Development tools like VB/VC++ :-) Cygnus GNUPro ;) > Someone forward this to Red Hat / Gnome and the XFree86 teams ... We've all seen it. Alan From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 13:38:37 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA89124 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:38:37 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA03188 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:38:51 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA45197; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:38:49 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from snowcrash.cymru.net (snowcrash.cymru.net [163.164.160.3]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id NAA07829; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:38:45 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from the-village.bc.nu (lightning.swansea.uk.linux.org [194.168.151.1]) by snowcrash.cymru.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA21317; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:38:41 GMT Received: by the-village.bc.nu (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0zbXyz-0007U9C; Thu, 5 Nov 98 22:34 GMT Message-Id: From: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Subject: Re: Halloween doc II To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:34:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <199811052134.NAA55597@oz.engr.sgi.com> from "Ariel Faigon" at Nov 5, 98 01:34:51 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 79 Lines: 6 > :We've all seen it. > : > How naive of me to even hint otherwise :-) Grin From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 16:08:02 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA61971 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:08:02 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA61653 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:07:46 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA65938; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:07:44 -0800 (PST) mail_from (miguel@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx) Received: from metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx (metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx [132.248.29.92]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id QAA07654; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:07:38 -0800 (PST) mail_from (miguel@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx) Received: (from miguel@localhost) by metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11760; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:13:10 -0600 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:13:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199811060013.SAA11760@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> From: Miguel de Icaza To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com CC: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-reply-to: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Subject: Re: Halloween doc II X-Mexico: Este es un pais de orates, un pais amateur. References: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 148 Lines: 8 > Someone forward this to Red Hat / Gnome and the XFree86 teams ... I can :-) It also mentions GNOME, which made me extremely happy :-) Miguel. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 16:09:54 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA72512 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:09:54 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA66237 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:10:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA49081; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:10:02 -0800 (PST) mail_from (miguel@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx) Received: from metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx (metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx [132.248.29.92]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id QAA06155; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:09:57 -0800 (PST) mail_from (miguel@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx) Received: (from miguel@localhost) by metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11763; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:15:10 -0600 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:15:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199811060015.SAA11763@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> From: Miguel de Icaza To: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk CC: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-reply-to: (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Subject: Re: Halloween doc II X-Quote: If at first you don't succeed, redefine success. References: Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 175 Lines: 9 > > 6) Development tools like VB/VC++ :-) > > Cygnus GNUPro ;) Yeah, but it is still not licensed under the GPL or an OpenSource license (at least not all of it) miguel. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 5 18:04:53 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA87366 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:04:53 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA06500 for linux-list; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:04:02 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA05803; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:03:59 -0800 (PST) mail_from (dmerchan@hiwaay.net) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id SAA06316; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:03:58 -0800 (PST) mail_from (dmerchan@hiwaay.net) Received: from hiwaay.net (tnt1-240.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.240]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA19541; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:03:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <364259E3.A1FF8A98@hiwaay.net> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:07:31 -0600 From: willwork4play X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ariel Faigon CC: SGI/Linux mailing list Subject: Re: Halloween doc II References: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2692 Lines: 70 Forget VC++. Borlands integrated debugger and compiler are the only way to go! David M. First time to post to this list. Do I get a tootsie roll? Ariel Faigon wrote: > > Hi, > > A second "what is Linux and how to combat it" document > just came out the Microsoft leak factory: > > http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html > > It is a followup doc to the infamous "Halloween Doc" > (now renamed "Halloween I"). It was leaked by an MS > employee as a reaction to the recent publicity for > Halloween-I. It adds the threat of Linux as a client > and gives a very positive evaluation of Linux (coming > from within MS, this is telling). > > It concludes again, with the sinister suggestions to > "de-commoditize" open protocols, plus (surprise) ways > to attack Linux via litigation (if you can't beat them > on merit, there are always the nukes, Bill). > > --- > There's specific interest to this community: David Miller > and Miguel de Icaza are both mentioned and their SPARC > comparison docs are linked from this document. No doubt, > the MS guys did a great research job. > > There's a lot the Linux community learn from this document. > Just read the "what's missing in Linux compared to NT" > part and make sure it is implemented. It doesn't appear > too hard. Some points which are definitely geared towards > the non sophisticated users include: > > 1) Automounting a floppy/CD when it is inserted > (BTW: IRIX mediad has been doing this for quite a while) > > 2) Simpler installation: e.g. rather than asking 30 > questions, provide a menu like: > 1) Express install: don't ask me anything, > just go ahead and fill my disk. > 2) Pick and chose: let me select > ... > > 3) XFree86 installation: don't ask me what chipset I have > and what's the scan rates etc. Instead have an internal > mapping table between well known brand names (e.g. ATI Mach64) > and the details of the card. People usually know the latter > (what's written on the box, but rarely the former) > > 4) Simpler Network config: DHCP client installed by default > Again saving complex questions to the simple user > > 5) Of course, a coherent consistent GUI to manage everything > from HW devices to access to files etc. Those who need > the simplicity, will never be willing to do command line > stuff. > > 6) Development tools like VB/VC++ :-) > > Someone forward this to Red Hat / Gnome and the XFree86 teams ... > > -- > Peace, Ariel From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 00:51:10 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id AAA17797 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:51:10 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id AAA53893 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:50:29 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id AAA92187 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:50:26 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pim@webcity.nl) Received: from webcity.nl (pennywise.webcity.nl [194.235.72.79]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id AAA00109 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:50:25 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pim@webcity.nl) Received: from webcity.nl (r10k.webcity.nl [194.235.72.77]) by webcity.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26869 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:54:44 +0100 Message-ID: <3642B84F.396935F@webcity.nl> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:50:23 +0200 From: Pim van Riezen Organization: Microhill Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP22) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Halloween doc II References: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 792 Lines: 21 Ariel Faigon wrote: > 6) Development tools like VB/VC++ :-) A few things could fill that gap (with which I'm experimenting a lot right now). An upcoming promise is gIDE, which could well fill the role of a project manager. Interface Design a-la VB can be very well done with the FLTK toolkit (http://fltk.easysw.com/) which, in my humble opinion of an application programmer, is the best thing to hit the world since the invention of the bread-slicing knife. There's also the JX/JCC (Code Crusader) combination, which unfortunately is such a pita to compile that I refuse to take it seriously :-) Pim --- pim@webcity.nl, xL@undernet.org Unix Developer for WebCity / Microhill Automation Operator for the SaltLake.UT.US.Undernet.Org IRC-Server From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 01:37:44 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id BAA21419 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:37:43 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id BAA62794 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:37:18 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id BAA10893 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:37:16 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from link.csem.ch (link.csemne.ch [138.131.145.25]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id BAA03688 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:37:14 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from exchsrv.csem.ch by link.csem.ch; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:37:52 +0100 (MET) X-Url: http://www.csem.ch Message-Id: <199811060937.KAA06637@link.csem.ch> Received: from ertdev2 (erndev2.csem.ch [138.131.170.50]) by exchsrv.csem.ch with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id TZMF1BNT; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:36:42 +0100 X-Sender: fmm@exchsrv X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:39:48 +0100 To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com From: "Fernando D. Mato Mira" Subject: Borland (was: unproductive Haloween thread) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 104 Lines: 5 Inprise does not seem too much of a compiler company anymore. CodeWarrior seems to be the way to go. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 02:44:51 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id CAA12993 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:44:51 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id CAA29012 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:43:59 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id CAA14766 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:43:56 -0800 (PST) mail_from (rmk@shell.mdc.net) Received: from netway1.mdc.net (netway1.mdc.net [206.66.240.2]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id CAA01852 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:43:56 -0800 (PST) mail_from (rmk@shell.mdc.net) Received: from shell.mdc.net (shell.mdc.net [206.66.240.208]) by netway1.mdc.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA23661; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (rmk@localhost) by shell.mdc.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA02267; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:39:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:39:09 -0500 (EST) From: 4819 To: Pim van Riezen cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Halloween doc II In-Reply-To: <3642B84F.396935F@webcity.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1238 Lines: 36 has anyone about ever tried scriptum? it's a pretty nice ide, at least i think so. it can be adapted to support any language, has a nice class browser, support cvs, support editing of files on remote hosts via ftp, etc. it was recently made opensource, perhaps some features can be borrowed from it, for use in gIDE. url is http://www.scriptum.org/ rob On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Pim van Riezen wrote: > Ariel Faigon wrote: > > 6) Development tools like VB/VC++ :-) > > A few things could fill that gap (with which I'm experimenting a lot > right now). An upcoming promise is gIDE, which could well fill the role > of a project manager. Interface Design a-la VB can be very well done > with the FLTK toolkit (http://fltk.easysw.com/) which, in my humble > opinion of an application programmer, is the best thing to hit the world > since the invention of the bread-slicing knife. > > There's also the JX/JCC (Code Crusader) combination, which unfortunately > is such a pita to compile that I refuse to take it seriously :-) > > Pim > > --- > > > pim@webcity.nl, xL@undernet.org > Unix Developer for WebCity / Microhill Automation > Operator for the SaltLake.UT.US.Undernet.Org IRC-Server > From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 04:38:52 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA30237 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:38:52 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id EAA54231 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:37:58 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA47407 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:37:56 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from link.csem.ch (link.csemne.ch [138.131.145.25]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id EAA04645 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:37:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from exchsrv.csem.ch by link.csem.ch; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:38:24 +0100 (MET) X-Url: http://www.csem.ch Message-Id: <199811061238.NAA07602@link.csem.ch> Received: from ertdev2 (erndev2.csem.ch [138.131.170.50]) by exchsrv.csem.ch with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id TZMF1B48; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:37:14 +0100 X-Sender: fmm@exchsrv X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:40:20 +0100 To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com From: "Fernando D. Mato Mira" Subject: Re: Halloween doc II In-Reply-To: References: <3642B84F.396935F@webcity.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 114 Lines: 7 At 05:39 AM 11/6/98 -0500, 4819 wrote: >url is http://www.scriptum.org/ Whoa! Software from the _other_ cult! From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 05:56:13 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id FAA34000 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:56:13 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id FAA65442 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:55:34 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id FAA55590 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:55:32 -0800 (PST) mail_from (dmerchan@hiwaay.net) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id FAA01172 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:55:31 -0800 (PST) mail_from (dmerchan@hiwaay.net) Received: from hiwaay.net (tnt2-54.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.54]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA11858; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 07:55:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <364300A9.8D8EDCF0@hiwaay.net> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 07:59:05 -0600 From: willwork4play X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Fernando D. Mato Mira" CC: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Borland (was: unproductive Haloween thread) References: <199811060937.KAA06637@link.csem.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 194 Lines: 10 What are Inprise and CodeWarrior, please? David M. Fernando D. Mato Mira wrote: > > Inprise does not seem too much of a compiler company anymore. > > CodeWarrior seems to be the way to go. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 06:12:10 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id GAA35567 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:12:10 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id GAA67431 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:11:36 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id GAA49779 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:11:35 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from link.csem.ch (link.csemne.ch [138.131.145.25]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id GAA03479 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:11:18 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from exchsrv.csem.ch by link.csem.ch; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:11:31 +0100 (MET) X-Url: http://www.csem.ch Message-Id: <199811061411.PAA08425@link.csem.ch> Received: from ertdev2 (erndev2.csem.ch [138.131.170.50]) by exchsrv.csem.ch with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id TZMF1B54; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:10:20 +0100 X-Sender: fmm@exchsrv X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:13:26 +0100 To: willwork4play From: "Fernando D. Mato Mira" Subject: Re: Borland (was: unproductive Haloween thread) Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <364300A9.8D8EDCF0@hiwaay.net> References: <199811060937.KAA06637@link.csem.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 144 Lines: 8 At 07:59 AM 11/6/98 -0600, you wrote: >What are Inprise and CodeWarrior, please? Inprise == Borland CodeWarrior: http://www.metrowerks.com/ From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 06:54:25 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id GAA30648 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:54:25 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id GAA69425 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:53:33 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id GAA72662 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:53:31 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from link.csem.ch (link.csemne.ch [138.131.145.25]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id GAA02671 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:53:29 -0800 (PST) mail_from (matomira@acm.org) Received: from exchsrv.csem.ch by link.csem.ch; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:54:09 +0100 (MET) X-Url: http://www.csem.ch Message-Id: <199811061454.PAA08884@link.csem.ch> Received: from ertdev2 (erndev2.csem.ch [138.131.170.50]) by exchsrv.csem.ch with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id TZMF1B8S; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:52:58 +0100 X-Sender: fmm@exchsrv X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:56:05 +0100 To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com From: "Fernando D. Mato Mira" Subject: Re: Borland (was: unproductive Haloween thread) In-Reply-To: References: <199811061411.PAA08425@link.csem.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 971 Lines: 17 >Can someone tell me what this has to do with Linux/SGI ? Ah. So I was not that wrong about prematurely labeling it `unproductive' Anyway, my point is that CodeWarrior might be the best option if you're developing in C++ for Linux(x86/ppc) [&& Doze] [&& Mac] [&& embedded] Fernando D. Mato Mira Real-Time SW Engineering & Networking Advanced Systems Engineering Division CSEM - Centre Suisse d'Electronique et de Microtechnique Jaquet-Droz 1 Email: matomira@acm.org CH-2007 Neuchatel Phone: +41 (32) 720-5152 Switzerland FAX: +41 (32) 720-5720 http://www.csem.ch/ http://www.vrai.com/ http://ligwww.epfl.ch/matomira.html From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 06:36:29 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id GAA22608 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:36:28 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id GAA68906 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:36:05 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id GAA61142 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:36:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from snowcrash.cymru.net (snowcrash.cymru.net [163.164.160.3]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id GAA04453 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:36:02 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from the-village.bc.nu (lightning.swansea.uk.linux.org [194.168.151.1]) by snowcrash.cymru.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA03336; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:35:56 GMT Received: by the-village.bc.nu (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0zbnrR-0007U8C; Fri, 6 Nov 98 15:31 GMT Message-Id: From: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Subject: Re: Borland (was: unproductive Haloween thread) To: matomira@acm.org (Fernando D. Mato Mira) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:31:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dmerchan@hiwaay.net, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <199811061411.PAA08425@link.csem.ch> from "Fernando D. Mato Mira" at Nov 6, 98 03:13:26 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 216 Lines: 10 > At 07:59 AM 11/6/98 -0600, you wrote: > >What are Inprise and CodeWarrior, please? > > Inprise == Borland > > CodeWarrior: http://www.metrowerks.com/ > Can someone tell me what this has to do with Linux/SGI ? From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 6 12:44:25 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA50280 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:44:25 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA07542 for linux-list; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:43:54 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA85265 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:43:51 -0800 (PST) mail_from (sgi.sgi.com!rachael.franken.de!hub-fue!alpha.franken.de!tsbogend) Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id MAA07312 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:43:46 -0800 (PST) mail_from (rachael.franken.de!hub-fue!alpha.franken.de!tsbogend) Received: from hub-fue by rachael.franken.de via rmail with uucp id for engr.sgi.com!linux; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:43:37 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built DST-Sep-8) Received: by hub-fue.franken.de (Smail3.1.29.1 #35) id m0zbsj8-002PGvC; Fri, 6 Nov 98 21:43 MET Received: (from tsbogend@localhost) by alpha.franken.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA02276; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:24:24 +0100 Message-ID: <19981106212424.A2271@alpha.franken.de> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:24:24 +0100 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer To: linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: GDB References: <19981105023015.K359@uni-koblenz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19981105023015.K359@uni-koblenz.de>; from ralf@uni-koblenz.de on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 02:30:15AM +0100 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 488 Lines: 13 On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 02:30:15AM +0100, ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote: > I found that by accident GDB and the kernel were using different > ptrace(2) interfaces. After fixing that for example ``info registers'' > works ok. how about sharing your fix with us ? Thomas. -- This device has completely bogus header. Compaq scores again :-| It's a host bridge, but it should be called ghost bridge instead ;^) [Martin `MJ' Mares on linux-kernel] From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sat Nov 7 18:37:33 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA63095 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:37:32 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA39091 for linux-list; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:36:12 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA33639 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:36:03 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id SAA08097 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:36:02 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-13.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.13]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA14784 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 03:35:50 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09599; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:52:10 +0100 Message-ID: <19981107205209.A9591@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:52:09 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Updated patch for binutils 2.9.1.0.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 7555 Lines: 239 --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, here is an updated patch for binutils 2.9.1.0.4. If you want to successfully recompile glibc 2.0.99 you'll need this patch. This bug is probably in ld as long as it exists. For a more detailed explanation of the bug see the comment in ld/ldlang.c. The bugs mentioned in my previous posting are all still unfixed. Ralf --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="binutils-2.9.1.0.4.diff" diff -urN binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/bfd/elf32-mips.c binutils-2.9.1.0.4/bfd/elf32-mips.c --- binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/bfd/elf32-mips.c Wed Apr 1 04:40:03 1998 +++ binutils-2.9.1.0.4/bfd/elf32-mips.c Sat Nov 7 15:58:21 1998 @@ -5113,36 +5113,43 @@ } else { - long indx; - - if (h == NULL) - sec = local_sections[r_symndx]; - else - { - BFD_ASSERT (h->root.type == bfd_link_hash_defined - || (h->root.type - == bfd_link_hash_defweak)); - sec = h->root.u.def.section; - } - if (sec != NULL && bfd_is_abs_section (sec)) - indx = 0; - else if (sec == NULL || sec->owner == NULL) + if (r_type == R_MIPS_32) { - bfd_set_error (bfd_error_bad_value); - return false; + outrel.r_info = ELF32_R_INFO (0, R_MIPS_REL32); + addend += relocation; } - else - { - asection *osec; + else + { + long indx; - osec = sec->output_section; - indx = elf_section_data (osec)->dynindx; - if (indx == 0) - abort (); - } + if (h == NULL) + sec = local_sections[r_symndx]; + else + { + BFD_ASSERT (h->root.type == bfd_link_hash_defined + || (h->root.type + == bfd_link_hash_defweak)); + sec = h->root.u.def.section; + } + if (sec != NULL && bfd_is_abs_section (sec)) + indx = 0; + else if (sec == NULL || sec->owner == NULL) + { + bfd_set_error (bfd_error_bad_value); + return false; + } + else + { + asection *osec; - outrel.r_info = ELF32_R_INFO (indx, R_MIPS_REL32); - addend += relocation; + osec = sec->output_section; + indx = elf_section_data (osec)->dynindx; + if (indx == 0) + abort (); + } + outrel.r_info = ELF32_R_INFO (indx, R_MIPS_REL32); + addend += relocation; + } } if (! skip) diff -urN binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/gas/ChangeLog binutils-2.9.1.0.4/gas/ChangeLog --- binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/gas/ChangeLog Mon Apr 27 23:22:47 1998 +++ binutils-2.9.1.0.4/gas/ChangeLog Sat Nov 7 12:56:25 1998 @@ -1,3 +1,10 @@ +Thu Nov 4 03:23:59 1998 Ralf Baechle + + * config/tc-mips.c (macro): Only emit a BFD_RELOC_MIPS_LITERAL + when the symbol is in the .lit section. Required for a.out + support. + (mips_ip): Fix %HI, %hi and %lo operators. + Mon Apr 27 13:45:04 1998 Ian Lance Taylor * configure.in: Set version number to 2.9.1. diff -urN binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/gas/config/tc-mips.c binutils-2.9.1.0.4/gas/config/tc-mips.c --- binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/gas/config/tc-mips.c Wed Mar 25 19:16:01 1998 +++ binutils-2.9.1.0.4/gas/config/tc-mips.c Sat Nov 7 12:56:25 1998 @@ -5068,13 +5068,22 @@ else { assert (offset_expr.X_op == O_symbol - && strcmp (segment_name (S_GET_SEGMENT - (offset_expr.X_add_symbol)), - ".lit4") == 0 && offset_expr.X_add_number == 0); - macro_build ((char *) NULL, &icnt, &offset_expr, "lwc1", "T,o(b)", - treg, (int) BFD_RELOC_MIPS_LITERAL, GP); - return; + s = segment_name (S_GET_SEGMENT (offset_expr.X_add_symbol)); + if (strcmp (s, ".lit4") == 0) + { + macro_build ((char *) NULL, &icnt, &offset_expr, "lwc1", "T,o(b)", + treg, (int) BFD_RELOC_MIPS_LITERAL, GP); + return; + } + else + { + /* FIXME: This won't work for a 64 bit address. */ + macro_build_lui ((char *) NULL, &icnt, &offset_expr, AT); + macro_build ((char *) NULL, &icnt, &offset_expr, "lwc1", "T,o(b)", + treg, (int) BFD_RELOC_LO16, AT); + return; + } } case M_LI_D: @@ -7553,11 +7562,23 @@ c = my_getSmallExpression (&imm_expr, s); if (c != '\0') { - if (c != 'l') + if (c == 'l') { if (imm_expr.X_op == O_constant) - imm_expr.X_add_number = - (imm_expr.X_add_number >> 16) & 0xffff; + { + imm_expr.X_add_number &= 0xffff; + imm_reloc = BFD_RELOC_LO16; + } + } + else + { + if (imm_expr.X_op == O_constant) + { + if (c == 'h' && (imm_expr.X_add_number & 0x8000)) + imm_expr.X_add_number += 0x1000; + imm_expr.X_add_number = + (imm_expr.X_add_number >> 16) & 0xffff; + } else if (c == 'h') { imm_reloc = BFD_RELOC_HI16_S; @@ -7652,11 +7673,22 @@ break; offset_reloc = BFD_RELOC_LO16; - if (c == 'h' || c == 'H') + if (c) { - assert (offset_expr.X_op == O_constant); - offset_expr.X_add_number = - (offset_expr.X_add_number >> 16) & 0xffff; + if (c != 'l') + { + if (offset_expr.X_op == O_constant) + { + if (c == 'h' && (offset_expr.X_add_number & 0x8000)) + offset_expr.X_add_number += 0x1000; + offset_expr.X_add_number = + (offset_expr.X_add_number >> 16) & 0xffff; + } + else if (c == 'h') + offset_reloc = BFD_RELOC_HI16_S; + else + offset_reloc = BFD_RELOC_HI16; + } } s = expr_end; continue; @@ -7669,10 +7701,13 @@ case 'u': /* upper 16 bits */ c = my_getSmallExpression (&imm_expr, s); - if (imm_expr.X_op == O_constant - && (imm_expr.X_add_number < 0 - || imm_expr.X_add_number >= 0x10000)) - as_bad ("lui expression not in range 0..65535"); + if (!c) + { + if (imm_expr.X_op == O_constant + && (imm_expr.X_add_number < 0 + || imm_expr.X_add_number >= 0x10000)) + as_bad ("lui expression not in range 0..65535"); + } imm_reloc = BFD_RELOC_LO16; if (c) { diff -urN binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/ld/ldlang.c binutils-2.9.1.0.4/ld/ldlang.c --- binutils-2.9.1.0.4.orig/ld/ldlang.c Wed Apr 1 04:40:12 1998 +++ binutils-2.9.1.0.4/ld/ldlang.c Sat Nov 7 20:15:03 1998 @@ -2353,6 +2353,24 @@ { asection *i; + /* MIPS specific hack. The .reginfo section on MIPS is special in + that it's not being produced by concatenting the input sections. + The size is always constant. Here we check if an output + .reginfo section has already been created. If so, we skip the + rest of the sizing process the output .reginfo section as all + section fields which need to be set have already reached their + final values. We can't do this in the backend since by the time + when the backend gets involved the vmas etc. have already been + computed based on the assumption of concatenating all section. + In case of a large number of files to be linked this may result + in a third PT_LOAD header being created which will crash the + linking process since we don't have header space for it. */ + if (output_section_statement->bfd_section->name + && strcmp(".reginfo", + output_section_statement->bfd_section->name) == 0 + && output_section_statement->bfd_section->_raw_size) + break; + i = (*prev)->input_section.section; if (! relax) { --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF-- From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sun Nov 8 17:08:35 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA03796 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:08:35 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA36667 for linux-list; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:08:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA24247 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:08:53 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id RAA06247 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:08:52 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-29.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.29]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12353 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:08:49 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02784; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:30:53 +0100 Message-ID: <19981108043052.B1275@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:30:52 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Richard Masoner , Bob Mende Pie Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Challenge S question References: <199811050041.QAA02949@piecomputer.engr.sgi.com> <199811051627.KAA07758@bif.cd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199811051627.KAA07758@bif.cd.com>; from Richard Masoner on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 10:27:22AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 537 Lines: 17 On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 10:27:22AM -0600, Richard Masoner wrote: > And Bob answered: > > > It should. > > The two Challenge S's I've had, and the one I currently have, do > not have keyboard and mouse ports. > > Refer to page 3-32 of the SGI Hardware Developer Handbook R2.0 for a > diagram of what the Challenge S has. Modern world, there things that exist but not officially. I was asking because I had a Challenge S report in my private email that would only make sense if the machine still has the keyboard controller. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sun Nov 8 17:07:50 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA86916 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:50 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA21243 for linux-list; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:25 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA34133; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:21 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id RAA03304; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:14 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-29.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.29]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12235; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:07:10 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02794; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:38:02 +0100 Message-ID: <19981108043802.C1275@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:38:02 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Miguel de Icaza , ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Halloween doc II References: <199811052053.MAA55262@oz.engr.sgi.com> <199811060013.SAA11760@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199811060013.SAA11760@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx>; from Miguel de Icaza on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 06:13:10PM -0600 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 253 Lines: 13 On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 06:13:10PM -0600, Miguel de Icaza wrote: > > Someone forward this to Red Hat / Gnome and the XFree86 teams ... > > I can :-) > > It also mentions GNOME, which made me extremely happy :-) > > Miguel. Miguel Gates ;-) Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Sun Nov 8 17:07:45 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA99903 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:45 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA36529 for linux-list; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:29 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA09186 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:19 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id RAA01728 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:07:18 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-29.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.29]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12230 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:07:10 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17930; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:50:45 +0100 Message-ID: <19981109005044.A17922@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:50:44 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Thomas Bogendoerfer , linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: GDB References: <19981105023015.K359@uni-koblenz.de> <19981106212424.A2271@alpha.franken.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="/04w6evG8XlLl3ft" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19981106212424.A2271@alpha.franken.de>; from Thomas Bogendoerfer on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 09:24:24PM +0100 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6597 Lines: 236 --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 09:24:24PM +0100, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 02:30:15AM +0100, ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote: > > I found that by accident GDB and the kernel were using different > > ptrace(2) interfaces. After fixing that for example ``info registers'' > > works ok. > > how about sharing your fix with us ? Guess too much decaf when I wrote that mail ... Attached the fixed version of mipslinux-nat.c. I've copied all the (corrected!) definitions of the kernel interfaces into mipslinux-nat.c, therefore no more headerfile problems even with old kernel headers installed. Ralf --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mipslinux-nat.c" /* Low level MIPS/Linux interface, for GDB when running native. Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc. Contributed by David S. Miller (davem@caip.rutgers.edu) at Rutgers University CAIP Research Center. This file is part of GDB. This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA. */ #include "defs.h" #include "inferior.h" #include "gdbcore.h" #include "target.h" #include "gdb_string.h" #include "symtab.h" #include "bfd.h" #include "symfile.h" #include "objfiles.h" #include "command.h" #include "frame.h" #include "gnu-regex.h" #include "inferior.h" #include "language.h" #include "gdbcmd.h" #include #include #include #include #include #include /* For JB_PC and friends. */ /* This duplicates definitions from ... */ /* ELF register definitions */ #define ELF_NGREG 45 #define ELF_NFPREG 33 typedef unsigned long gregset_t [ELF_NGREG]; typedef double fpregset_t [ELF_NFPREG]; /* This duplicates definitions from ... */ /* 0 - 31 are integer registers, 32 - 63 are fp registers. */ #define FPR_BASE 32 #define PC 64 #define CAUSE 65 #define BADVADDR 66 #define MMHI 67 #define MMLO 68 #define FPC_CSR 69 #define FPC_EIR 70 /* End of duplicated definitions */ /* Size of elements in jmpbuf */ #define JB_ELEMENT_SIZE 4 /* Figure out where the longjmp will land. We expect the first arg to be a pointer to the jmp_buf structure from which we extract the pc (JB_PC) that we will land at. The pc is copied into PC. This routine returns true on success. */ int get_longjmp_target(pc) CORE_ADDR *pc; { CORE_ADDR jb_addr; char buf[TARGET_PTR_BIT / TARGET_CHAR_BIT]; jb_addr = read_register (A0_REGNUM); if (target_read_memory (jb_addr + JB_PC * JB_ELEMENT_SIZE, buf, TARGET_PTR_BIT / TARGET_CHAR_BIT)) return 0; *pc = extract_address (buf, TARGET_PTR_BIT / TARGET_CHAR_BIT); return 1; } /* * See the comment in m68k-tdep.c regarding the utility of these functions. * * These definitions are from the MIPS SVR4 ABI, so they may work for * any MIPS SVR4 target. */ void supply_gregset (gregsetp) gregset_t *gregsetp; { register int regi; register unsigned int *regp = (unsigned int *) &(*gregsetp)[0]; static char zerobuf[MAX_REGISTER_RAW_SIZE] = {0}; for (regi = EF_REG0; regi <= EF_LO; regi++) supply_register ((regi - EF_REG0), (char *)(regp + regi)); supply_register(PC_REGNUM, (char *)(regp + EF_CP0_EPC)); supply_register(CAUSE_REGNUM, (char *)(regp + EF_CP0_CAUSE)); supply_register(BADVADDR_REGNUM, (char *)(regp + EF_CP0_BADVADDR)); supply_register(LO_REGNUM, (char *)(regp + EF_LO)); supply_register(HI_REGNUM, (char *)(regp + EF_HI)); /* Fill inaccessible registers with zero. */ supply_register (FP_REGNUM, zerobuf); supply_register (UNUSED_REGNUM, zerobuf); } void fill_gregset (gregsetp, regno) gregset_t *gregsetp; int regno; { int regi; register unsigned int *regp = (unsigned int *) &(*gregsetp)[0]; for (regi = 0; regi <= (EF_SIZE / 4); regi++) if ((regno == -1) || (regno == regi)) *(regp + regi) = *(unsigned int *) ®isters[REGISTER_BYTE (regi)]; } /* Now we do the same thing for floating-point registers. * We don't bother to condition on FP0_REGNUM since any * reasonable MIPS configuration has an R3010 in it. * * Again, see the comments in m68k-tdep.c. */ void supply_fpregset (fpregsetp) fpregset_t *fpregsetp; { register int regi; static char zerobuf[MAX_REGISTER_RAW_SIZE] = {0}; for (regi = 0; regi < 32; regi++) supply_register (FP0_REGNUM + regi, (char *)&fpregsetp[regi]); supply_register (FCRCS_REGNUM, (char *)&fpregsetp[32]); /* FIXME: how can we supply FCRIR_REGNUM? The ABI doesn't tell us. */ supply_register (FCRIR_REGNUM, zerobuf); } void fill_fpregset (fpregsetp, regno) fpregset_t *fpregsetp; int regno; { int regi; char *from, *to; for (regi = FP0_REGNUM; regi < FP0_REGNUM + 32; regi++) { if ((regno == -1) || (regno == regi)) { from = (char *) ®isters[REGISTER_BYTE (regi)]; to = (char *) &(fpregsetp[regi - FP0_REGNUM]); memcpy(to, from, REGISTER_RAW_SIZE (regi)); } } #if 0 if ((regno == -1) || (regno == FCRCS_REGNUM)) fpregsetp[32] = *(unsigned int *) ®isters[REGISTER_BYTE(FCRCS_REGNUM)]; #endif } /* Map gdb internal register number to ptrace ``address''. These ``addresses'' are defined in */ #define REGISTER_PTRACE_ADDR(regno) \ (regno < 32 ? regno \ : regno == PC_REGNUM ? PC \ : regno == CAUSE_REGNUM ? CAUSE \ : regno == HI_REGNUM ? MMHI \ : regno == LO_REGNUM ? MMLO \ : regno == FCRCS_REGNUM ? FPC_CSR \ : regno == FCRIR_REGNUM ? FPC_EIR \ : regno >= FP0_REGNUM ? FPR_BASE + (regno - FP0_REGNUM) \ : 0) /* Return the ptrace ``address'' of register REGNO. */ CORE_ADDR register_addr (regno, blockend) int regno; CORE_ADDR blockend; { if(regno < 0 || regno >= NUM_REGS) error ("Bogon register number %d.", regno); return REGISTER_PTRACE_ADDR (regno); } --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft-- From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Tue Nov 10 19:23:25 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA38523 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:23:25 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA90890 for linux-list; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:22:42 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA77755 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:22:38 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id TAA01176 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:22:37 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-04.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.4]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA22507 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:22:22 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00639; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:03:41 +0100 Message-ID: <19981109140341.D541@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:03:41 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Binutils 2.9.x Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 798 Lines: 15 I've been asked if I recommend an upgrade to binutils 2.9.x when I recently posted patches. No, at this time I even disrecommend an upgrade since binutils 2.9.1.0.4 have been the most buggy binutils version I touched since a long, long time. Rebuilding glibc 2.0.99 triggers more than 3000 lines warning messages for failed assertions in elf32-mips.c, I get core dumps and all sorts of sick effects. I touched them though for two reasons. First of all, in the interest of getting an Linux distribution working for us with as little changes as possible we should go with whatever the Linux distributor uses. In case of Redhat 5.1 this is binutils 2.9.1.0.4. Second I've started to work a bit on glibc 2.0.99. In order to get symbol versioning working we need at least binutils 2.9.1. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mon Nov 9 10:26:09 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA32377 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:26:09 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id KAA15172 for linux-list; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:25:48 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from morgaine.engr.sgi.com (morgaine.engr.sgi.com [130.62.16.64]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA66069 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:25:46 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@morgaine.engr.sgi.com) Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (gate3-relay.engr.sgi.com [130.62.1.234]) by morgaine.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/960327.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA16684 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA57487 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:25:44 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pattejam@webadept.com) Received: from hankey.webadept.com (milhouse.webadept.com [199.77.41.169] (may be forged)) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id KAA08848 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:25:43 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pattejam@webadept.com) Received: from webadept.com (IDENT:pattejam@www.webadept.com [199.77.41.5]) by hankey.webadept.com (8.9.0/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03136 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:23:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:27:39 -0500 (EST) From: Cory Patterson To: linux@morgaine.engr.sgi.com Subject: Mouse Support. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 274 Lines: 11 It there currently mouse support for the Indy's running Hard Hat, I have read through the archive mailing list and i couldn't find a resoluton for this, if there even is one. Thanks in advance ---------------------------------- Cory Patterson pattejam@webadept.com From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mon Nov 9 11:26:03 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA56866 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:26:03 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA26405 for linux-list; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:25:46 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from morgaine.engr.sgi.com (morgaine.engr.sgi.com [130.62.16.64]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA36207 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:25:44 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@morgaine.engr.sgi.com) Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (gate3-relay.engr.sgi.com [130.62.1.234]) by morgaine.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/960327.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA16646 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA33861 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:25:39 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pattejam@webadept.com) Received: from hankey.webadept.com (milhouse.webadept.com [199.77.41.169] (may be forged)) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id LAA09181 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pattejam@webadept.com) Received: from webadept.com (IDENT:pattejam@www.webadept.com [199.77.41.5]) by hankey.webadept.com (8.9.0/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03413; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:23:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:27:34 -0500 (EST) From: Cory Patterson To: 4819 cc: linux@morgaine.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Mouse Support. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 620 Lines: 31 Tried that... [pattejam@ike /dev]$ ls -al mouse lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 Nov 6 15:06 mouse -> /dev/psaux when i retart gpm, I get: [pattejam@ike /dev]$ sudo /etc/rc.d/init.d/gpm start Starting gpm mouse services: gpm gpm: /dev/mouse: Operation not supported by device here is a copy of my /etc/sysconfig/mouse file: MOUSETYPE="ps/2" XEMU3=yes ---------------------------------- Cory Patterson pattejam@webadept.com On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, 4819 wrote: > the regular PSAUX mouse support should work fine. works on my indy, no > problem. it's a ps/2 mouse, it just looks funky. :-) > > rob > From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 11 15:39:16 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA21247 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:39:15 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA04142 for linux-list; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:38:18 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA95605 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:37:33 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (mailhost.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.64.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id PAA00489 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:37:27 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (pmport-11.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.249.11]) by mailhost.uni-koblenz.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA29533 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:37:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA23083; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:31:03 +0100 Message-ID: <19981112003103.B22798@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:31:03 +0100 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Philip Blundell , linux-mips@fnet.fr Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Binutils 2.9.x References: <19981109140341.D541@uni-koblenz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Philip Blundell on Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 09:57:09AM +0100 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1035 Lines: 19 On Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 09:57:09AM +0100, Philip Blundell wrote: > Does this happen even without versioning? My experience with the ARM was that > when we tried to start using symbol versioning it showed up various problems > in our ELF backend (basically various invalid assumptions). All were easy to > fix but gave symptoms like yours initially. It's several bugs all in one. First of all somebody broke the special handling for the .reginfo sections. We actually only have them to satisfy the ABI, otherwise they're toxic waste since nothing uses them. Then we have the missing support for symbol versioning. All the assert messages I examined were caused by the dynindx field of symbol hash being set to -1 in order to force them to local symbols. Finally we have a other bugs which account for the core dumps. So far I only have the .reginfo thing fixed and since my knowledge about BFD internals has mostly decayed of the long time getting the symbol versioning bugs right has proven to be quite some work. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mon Nov 23 12:39:50 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA36638 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:39:50 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA52835 for linux-list; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:38:43 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgidal.dallas.sgi.com (sgidal.dallas.sgi.com [169.238.80.130]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id MAA61461 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:38:40 -0800 (PST) mail_from (chad@roctane.dallas.sgi.com) Received: from roctane.dallas.sgi.com by sgidal.dallas.sgi.com via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) for <@sgidal.dallas.sgi.com:linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com> id OAA11960; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:38:39 -0600 Received: from roctane.dallas.sgi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by roctane.dallas.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA02217 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:38:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3659C7CD.1B134991@roctane.dallas.sgi.com> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:38:37 -0600 From: Chad Carlin Reply-To: chad@sgi.com Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: New to Linux References: <199810310228.SAA34114@oz.engr.sgi.com> <19981105031325.P359@uni-koblenz.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1355 Lines: 42 Help. Here is what I have: Indy: R4k indy w/ a 1GB and a 500MB disk. I have an external 9GB from my other system that I am temorarily (I hope) using to boot IRIX on my Linux Indy. Software: Linux-installer-0.2.tar root-be-0.04.cpio SRPMS vmlinux-indy-2.1.99.tar.gz instructions I read the instructions. The one with all of the tftp and nfs setup. Is this for after I boot Linux, so I can install the rest of the software? BTW I tested this by booting miniroot from my other Indy. I also read the INSTALL instructions. I was able to successfully: ./mke2fs drive, ./installer drive, cjwsh> MAKEDEV, cpio root-be-0.04.cpio, and ./e2fsck -fy drive. Finally I did the, gzip -dc vmlinux.gz > /vmlinux. All of this went OK. It's the "boot vmlinux root=/dev/sda0" that makes the indy panic! Do I do this from PROM or sash? I don't think that I can read the efs filesystem without sash. Is there a better way to determine what device my e2fs root filesystem is at? Tell me if I'm getting this proceedure right. 1)Boot vmlinux kernel and mount e2fs filesystem as /. 2)Use tftp to install the stuff that I downloaded in the SRPMS directory. 3)Somehow I will end up with a system that can boot without having IRIX on a local disk. BTW is there anyway to mount this e2fs filesystem from with IRIX? Thanks for any and all input. Flame me if you must. Chad From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Tue Nov 24 04:22:02 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA08354 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:22:02 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id EAA06323 for linux-list; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:21:21 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA00916 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:21:19 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from x.fra.se (x.fra.se [193.12.220.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via SMTP id EAA05208 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:21:16 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from fra.se by x.fra.se via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for id NAA07922; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:27:53 +0100 Message-ID: <365AA647.62A5565D@fra.se> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:27:53 +0100 From: "Torbjörn Gannholm" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP12) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com" Subject: help offered Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1169 Lines: 29 First my apologies for asking questions you all know the answer to: What kind of SGI-machines does Linux currently work on? In what areas does IRIX6.5 have a significant edge over Linux performancewise? We really want to put Linux on _everything_ we've got, from PI's to O2000 (we might also keep a PowerSeries380 for fun), as well as on suns and pcs. It would make everything a lot simpler to administrate, plus if we're not happy we can try to hack something. If necessary for performance, we can keep IRIX on the numbercrunchers, and, if that's not a performance problem, use gcc/egcs and glibc. Same questions for these contra Irix Development Kit as above. I have my employer's blessing to put time into porting and/or development of Linux/gcc/glibc for SGI-machines if someone just points me in the right direction. I have solid programming experience, I have dabbled a bit in sysadmin and am a quick learner (I have at times written useful code in unknown languages from examples), but haven't been this deep in before. -- /Torbjörn This message is a personal message from Torbjörn Gannholm and does not necessarily represent the opinion of my employer. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Tue Nov 24 12:34:34 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA44380 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:34:34 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA34757 for linux-list; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:33:49 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from oz.engr.sgi.com (oz.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.13]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA02995; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:33:46 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from ariel@localhost) by oz.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA31902; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:33:45 -0800 (PST) From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-Id: <199811242033.MAA31902@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: help offered To: torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se (Torbjörn Gannholm) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:33:45 -0800 (PST) Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <365AA647.62A5565D@fra.se> from "Torbjörn Gannholm" at Nov 24, 98 01:27:53 pm Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2104 Lines: 54 : :First my apologies for asking questions you all know the answer to: :What kind of SGI-machines does Linux currently work on? : Only Indys. :In what areas does IRIX6.5 have a significant edge over Linux :performancewise? : - Scalability: up to 256 CPUs - Guaranteed Real Time response (kernel is preemptible i.e. you can have multiple system calls executing in server space simultaneously. - A real journalling filesystem (XFS). Reboot doesn't require a lenghty 'fsck'. Even if you have a terabyte filesystem the filesystem check takes one second or so. - Bandwidth (I/O networking) e.g. 4 GB/sec write to RAID disks. Linux has a clear edge is latency (as opposed to bandwidth) short system call paths, simplicity and a general speed advantage almost accros the board on machines with a single CPU, small disks, small files etc. Note that Linux doesn't even support big files (more than 4 GB) on x86, while IRIX supports many terabyte files. :We really want to put Linux on _everything_ we've got, from PI's to :O2000 (we might also keep a PowerSeries380 for fun), as well as on suns :and pcs. It would make everything a lot simpler to administrate, plus if :we're not happy we can try to hack something. : Me too. This is not easy to do. It is a big work. :If necessary for performance, we can keep IRIX on the numbercrunchers, :and, if that's not a performance problem, use gcc/egcs and glibc. Same :questions for these contra Irix Development Kit as above. : :I have my employer's blessing to put time into porting and/or :development of Linux/gcc/glibc for SGI-machines if someone just points :me in the right direction. :I have solid programming experience, I have dabbled a bit in sysadmin :and am a quick learner (I have at times written useful code in unknown :languages from examples), but haven't been this deep in before. : If you could make 'glibc' run on IRIX and send me the details of what you did (and patches to the maintainers) that would be a great great thing. It will make most freeware programs more portable between IRIX and Linux. -- Peace, Ariel From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 11:52:10 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA51348 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:52:10 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA01555 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:51:19 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA44007 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:51:17 -0800 (PST) mail_from (Olivier.Galibert@loria.fr) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id LAA09042 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:51:10 -0800 (PST) mail_from (Olivier.Galibert@loria.fr) Received: from renaissance.loria.fr (renaissance.loria.fr [152.81.4.102]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.8.7/8.8.7/8.8.7/JCG) with ESMTP id UAA08883 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:49:00 +0100 (MET) Received: (from galibert@localhost) by renaissance.loria.fr (8.8.2/8.8.2) id UAA04724; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:49:00 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:49:00 +0100 From: Olivier Galibert To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered Mail-Followup-To: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com References: <365AA647.62A5565D@fra.se> <199811242033.MAA31902@oz.engr.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199811242033.MAA31902@oz.engr.sgi.com>; from Ariel Faigon on Tue, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:33:45PM -0800 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1215 Lines: 38 On Tue, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:33:45PM -0800, Ariel Faigon wrote: > - Scalability: up to 256 CPUs I can tell than an O2K with 64 CPUS works quite well when the hardware isn't failing, but the hardware is often failing... > - Guaranteed Real Time response (kernel is preemptible > i.e. you can have multiple system calls executing in server > space simultaneously. Linux 2.1.* is very preemtible, even if there are stil some things to do. > - A real journalling filesystem (XFS). Reboot doesn't > require a lenghty 'fsck'. Even if you have a terabyte > filesystem the filesystem check takes one second or so. xfs is _very_ good. > - Bandwidth (I/O networking) e.g. 4 GB/sec write to > RAID disks. Interesting. Our "local" SGI vendor (i.e. the one for France), told us that 1GB/sec write speed was too much and he could only guarantee 800MB/sec for our 1TB raid array. > Note that Linux doesn't even support big files (more than 4 GB) > on x86, while IRIX supports many terabyte files. The limit on x86 is 2GB. To be fair, said terabyte files and filesystems are connected to systems with a 64bits architecture. Afaik, linux on alpha handles terabytes files. OG. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 11:58:20 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA50892 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:58:20 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA31089 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:57:13 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from machine.engr.sgi.com (machine.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.58]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA38264; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:57:11 -0800 (PST) mail_from (jes@machine.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from jes@localhost) by machine.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/960327.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA24028; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:57:10 -0800 (PST) From: jes@machine.engr.sgi.com (John E. Schimmel) Message-Id: <199811251957.LAA24028@machine.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: help offered To: galibert@pobox.com (Olivier Galibert) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:57:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> from "Olivier Galibert" at Nov 25, 98 08:49:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 679 Lines: 17 > > The limit on x86 is 2GB. To be fair, said terabyte files and > filesystems are connected to systems with a 64bits architecture. > Afaik, linux on alpha handles terabytes files. > > OG. > We support >2GB on 32 bit systems, and added lseek64() and friends before we had 64 bit size_t/off_t. -------------------------------------------------------------- John E. Schimmel Email: jes@sgi.com KD6MNW Voice: (650)933-4116 Silicon Graphics Inc. Fax: (650)933-0513 http://reality.sgi.com/jes Cellular: (209)631-0896 -------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 12:12:54 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA51601 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:12:53 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA74056 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:35 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA56150 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:33 -0800 (PST) mail_from (watts@sunflower.com) Received: from violet.jayhawks.net (violet.jayhawks.net [24.124.29.27]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id MAA02686 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:32 -0800 (PST) mail_from (watts@sunflower.com) Received: from localhost (watts@localhost) by violet.jayhawks.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA31957; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:11:19 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: violet.jayhawks.net: watts owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:11:19 -0600 (EST) From: Jeffrey Watts X-Sender: watts@violet.jayhawks.net To: Olivier Galibert cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1073 Lines: 23 On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Olivier Galibert wrote: > I can tell than an O2K with 64 CPUS works quite well when the hardware > isn't failing, but the hardware is often failing... Have you had a high failure rate? We just bought 8 O2Ks with 12 CPUs each. We are supposed to take delivery next month. The 2 single-module Integrated Test machines we've gotten seem to work great. These machines will be used in a high-availability environment (4 nines, moving to 5 nines with FailSafe 2.0). J. o-----------------------------------o | Jeffrey Watts | | watts@sunflower.com o-------------------------------------o | Systems Analyst | "I don't think Microsoft is evil in | | Sprint - Systems Management | itself; I just think that they | o-------------------------------| make really crappy operating | | systems." | | -- Linus Torvalds | o-------------------------------------o From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 12:38:50 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA45120 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:38:50 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA72484 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:37:40 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from oz.engr.sgi.com (oz.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.13]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA66728; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:37:37 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from ariel@localhost) by oz.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA37649; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:37:37 -0800 (PST) From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-Id: <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: help offered To: galibert@pobox.com (Olivier Galibert) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:37:36 -0800 (PST) Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> from "Olivier Galibert" at Nov 25, 98 08:49:00 pm Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1890 Lines: 53 : :> - Guaranteed Real Time response (kernel is preemptible :> i.e. you can have multiple system calls executing in server :> space simultaneously. : :Linux 2.1.* is very preemtible, even if there are stil some things to :do. : Interesting. Could you elaborate on: 0) What was changed in recent Linux kernels to support preemtibility in kernel space? 1) Which "serious" (i.e not 'getpid') system calls are now reentrant ? 2) What still remains to be done so Linux can really scale before it gets bottlenecked by kernel locks ? :> - Bandwidth (I/O networking) e.g. 4 GB/sec write to :> RAID disks. : :Interesting. Our "local" SGI vendor (i.e. the one for France), told :us that 1GB/sec write speed was too much and he could only guarantee :800MB/sec for our 1TB raid array. : I've seen way much higher numbers. They are not official, and are not supposed to be used in sales situations, but were obtained in our labs with XFS and arrays that were designed and tuned to maximize bandwidth and to prove that XFS is not the bottleneck. I believe they also used fiberchannel etc. Anyway, there are some much greater experts on this subject on this list if they care to give the details. : :> Note that Linux doesn't even support big files (more than 4 GB) :> on x86, while IRIX supports many terabyte files. : :The limit on x86 is 2GB. To be fair, said terabyte files and :filesystems are connected to systems with a 64bits architecture. :Afaik, linux on alpha handles terabytes files. : Yes, I know this is not a strictly-Linux limitation, which is why I was careful to add "on x86". Please don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to advocate any OS over the other (I love and use both) and I didn't mean to turn this into an advocacy thread. I was just to respond honestly and fairly to a specific question I was asked. -- Peace, Ariel From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 12:46:42 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA48693 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:46:42 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA53947 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from xtp.engr.sgi.com (xtp.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.34]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id MAA34822 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:45:52 -0800 (PST) mail_from (greg@xtp.engr.sgi.com) Received: by xtp.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id MAA23962; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:43:31 -0800 From: "Greg Chesson" Message-Id: <9811251243.ZM23960@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:43:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: Jeffrey Watts "Re: help offered" (Nov 25, 2:11pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: Jeffrey Watts , Olivier Galibert Subject: Re: help offered Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 982 Lines: 23 Small systems have a much lower failure rate than large (128p) systems. This is for software as well as hardware. There have been improvements in all hw failure modes in the last year. The most common failure is memory. This is no suprise since there are statistically 10X more memory components in a system compared to everything else. The second most common failure is power supplies. The power supplies have been reengineered. New systems have the new supplies. Systems in the field are upgraded when there are problems. Although all systems are burned in and tested before leaving the factory, they can suffer damage by the time they arrive at a new site. Although the DOA rate is low, it is still non-zero. Once a system is installed and any infant mortality problems have been solved, the probability for continuous operation is very high. Bad power, frequent reconfigurations, moving cables and boards about can cause problems with any system. g -- Greg Chesson From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 12:55:16 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA50755 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:55:15 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA31503 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:54:30 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA91017; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:54:27 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: from elenuial.atlsci.com (elenuial.atlsci.com [209.151.14.9]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id MAA02691; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:54:24 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: (from pjlahaie@localhost) by elenuial.atlsci.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03607; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:51:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:51:54 -0500 (EST) From: To: Ariel Faigon cc: Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 843 Lines: 19 On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Ariel Faigon wrote: > I've seen way much higher numbers. They are not official, and > are not supposed to be used in sales situations, but were obtained > in our labs with XFS and arrays that were designed and tuned to > maximize bandwidth and to prove that XFS is not the bottleneck. > I believe they also used fiberchannel etc. Anyway, there are > some much greater experts on this subject on this list if they > care to give the details. I was under the impression the O2k memory bandwidth was limited to ~800MB/s. If so, even if you can read 4GB/s what are you foing to do with it? It would have to go over the CrayLink "network" and that doesn't do 4GB/s. The only way I can see 4GB/s disk throughput is multiple of the node accessing "local" drives and adding all the bandwidth together. - Paul From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 12:58:16 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA54050 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:58:16 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA96695 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:58:03 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from xtp.engr.sgi.com (xtp.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.34]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id MAA72429 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:58:02 -0800 (PST) mail_from (greg@xtp.engr.sgi.com) Received: by xtp.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id MAA24004; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:56:41 -0800 From: "Greg Chesson" Message-Id: <9811251256.ZM24002@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:56:41 -0800 In-Reply-To: Olivier Galibert "Re: help offered" (Nov 25, 8:49pm) References: <365AA647.62A5565D@fra.se> <199811242033.MAA31902@oz.engr.sgi.com> <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1009 Lines: 20 >Interesting. Our "local" SGI vendor (i.e. the one for France), told >us that 1GB/sec write speed was too much and he could only guarantee >800MB/sec for our 1TB raid array. 800 MB/s might be a good conversative estimate for a particular RAID array. However, it is not a limit for Origin systems or disk arrays in general. We regularly specify and deliver systems with file and network performance much greater than 800 MB/s. Also, regarding file system bandwidth most discussions do not clarify between peak, sustained, or average performance or specify the transfer sizes or number of clients or other important environmental factors. Disk vendors are the worst offenders. RAID vendors are pretty bad, too. I've seen two different vendors claim the sum of the peak bandwidths of the disk channels on their boxes as the expected file system performance. Woe to the customer who actually believes such garbage. And woe to the vendors who have to compete against such garbage. g -- Greg Chesson From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 13:08:31 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA55719 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:08:31 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA50927 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:07:22 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from xtp.engr.sgi.com (xtp.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.34]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id NAA94734; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:07:19 -0800 (PST) mail_from (greg@xtp.engr.sgi.com) Received: by xtp.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id NAA24038; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:04:48 -0800 From: "Greg Chesson" Message-Id: <9811251304.ZM24036@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:04:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) "Re: help offered" (Nov 25, 9:46pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox), ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered Cc: galibert@pobox.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 577 Lines: 17 One definition of OS scalability that I have not seen in general use is this: an OS scales to S number of processors if all S processors can be executing in the kernel at the same time. An OS that scales to S active kernels can usually operate hardware with P processors, where P > S. A system for 1P should be able to handle 2P with a little work. I expect a lightweight kernel like Linux to handle 4p with a few locks if on average only one of the 4p is in the kernel. I'd suggest that the LInux kernel is at present (1S, 4p) or maybe (1.5S, 4P). g -- Greg Chesson From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 13:16:22 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA54776 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:16:22 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA20695 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:15:33 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA87398; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:14:41 -0800 (PST) mail_from (Olivier.Galibert@loria.fr) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id NAA08318; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) mail_from (Olivier.Galibert@loria.fr) Received: from renaissance.loria.fr (renaissance.loria.fr [152.81.4.102]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.8.7/8.8.7/8.8.7/JCG) with ESMTP id WAA12714; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:12:17 +0100 (MET) Received: (from galibert@localhost) by renaissance.loria.fr (8.8.2/8.8.2) id WAA05021; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:12:16 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981125221216.A4954@loria.fr> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:12:16 +0100 From: Olivier Galibert To: Greg Chesson , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered Mail-Followup-To: Greg Chesson , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com References: <365AA647.62A5565D@fra.se> <199811242033.MAA31902@oz.engr.sgi.com> <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> <9811251256.ZM24002@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <9811251256.ZM24002@xtp.engr.sgi.com>; from Greg Chesson on Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:56:41PM -0800 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 524 Lines: 17 On Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:56:41PM -0800, Greg Chesson wrote: > And woe to the vendors who have to compete against such garbage. Ohh yeah. Actually, in our case, it was slightly better: - we wanted 1TB of disk. - we wanted to be able to dump the full 8GB memory of the O2K to the disk in around 10 seconds. - we wanted to buy everything to SGI (fibre channel raid array, disks, everything). So the SGI dudes were able to choose solutions known to work instead of having to cope with existing hardware :-) OG. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 13:19:28 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA45335 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:19:28 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA83238 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:18:25 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from fir.engr.sgi.com (fir.engr.sgi.com [150.166.61.141]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id NAA60993; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:18:22 -0800 (PST) mail_from (wje@fir.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from wje@localhost) by fir.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA22913; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:18:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:18:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199811252118.NAA22913@fir.engr.sgi.com> From: "William J. Earl" To: Cc: Ariel Faigon , Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: References: <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1524 Lines: 27 pjlahaie@atlsci.com writes: > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Ariel Faigon wrote: > > > I've seen way much higher numbers. They are not official, and > > are not supposed to be used in sales situations, but were obtained > > in our labs with XFS and arrays that were designed and tuned to > > maximize bandwidth and to prove that XFS is not the bottleneck. > > I believe they also used fiberchannel etc. Anyway, there are > > some much greater experts on this subject on this list if they > > care to give the details. > > I was under the impression the O2k memory bandwidth was limited to > ~800MB/s. If so, even if you can read 4GB/s what are you foing to do with > it? It would have to go over the CrayLink "network" and that doesn't do > 4GB/s. The only way I can see 4GB/s disk throughput is multiple of the > node accessing "local" drives and adding all the bandwidth together. A single node is only 800 MB/s, but an 8P Origin 2000 has four nodes, and a 32P has 16 nodes. The router network bandwidth scales with the number of nodes, so the memory bandwidth of a 32P Origin 2000 is far more than enough for 4 GB/s. If you attach the drives to multiple controllers on multiple nodes, then it is easy to stripe across them with the volume manager to get high bandwidth. The volume manager does requests in parallel, so it is not a bottleneck. The Origin architecture does not have a central bus, so it is not bus limited. Just add boxes until the bandwidth is enough for what you need. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 13:27:53 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA56090 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:27:53 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA93243 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:26:38 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from xtp.engr.sgi.com (xtp.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.34]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id NAA16710; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) mail_from (greg@xtp.engr.sgi.com) Received: by xtp.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id NAA24102; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:24:04 -0800 From: "Greg Chesson" Message-Id: <9811251324.ZM24100@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:24:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: "Re: help offered" (Nov 25, 3:51pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: , Ariel Faigon Subject: Re: help offered Cc: Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3261 Lines: 60 max rate on an io channel is 800 MB/s.. The sustainable rates range from 580 to 720 depending which channel you're looking at in the machine. But the memory subsystem is ccNUMA. That means any channel in the system can read/write any memory in the system. With io buffers that comprise multiple pages, and with the pages of the buffer located on several different memory controllers, multiple io channels can burst (in parallel) to the "array" of pages that comprise the buffer. A system in my lab has 24 Fibre Channels. We build an XFS file system that operates all 24 channels on a read or write. There's a RAID controller on each FC with an 8+1 LUN. The file system is arranged so that each controller has a 4MB IO, each disk gets a 512KB IO, and the IO size of the native file allocation block is 24*4MB == 96 MB. It takes about 50ms for a one disk transfer. During that time all 24 FC burst into memory. The dma rate is around 90 MB/s. So, that is 2160 MB/s. The aggregate memory bandwidth for an 16-cpu Origin is about 4000 MB/s (sustained). The actual memory bandwidth is about 20% more, but I derate it when doing this kind of exercise. In order to avoid page management overhead, we rely on the ability to specify large (16MB) pages for buffers of this kind. The OS is quite happy to manage large pages as well as the default-sized ones (16KB). Without this capability, the page management overhead would be a major stumbling block. Also, striped IO of this kind does not go through the file system buffer cache. These are direct-io transfers between the channel and user-supplied buffers. It's not clear the Linux permits dma to a mapped user page.... I get different opinions from folks. Nevertheless, large pages and direct IO are necessary tools for operating big io. The channel bandwidth is 2160 MB/s during an IO as noted above. However, the channels can't transfer continuously in this configuration because the disks have to seek occasionally. So, the amount that you derate the peak bandwidth to get to sustained file system bandwidth depends on the block size, number of seeks, average seek distance, the number of IO requests in the hardware/controller pipeline, plus some fuzz to account for faster transfer rates on the outside cylinders compared to inside cylinders plus the number of direction changes (mix of reads and writes) plus some analysis of extra drive rotations on writes and the effectiveness of disk and controller track caches. Whew. Anyway the 24-channel RAID-3 system will sustain about 1520 MB/s under arbitrary read/write and seek patterns. "Good" patterns will trend toward 2000 MB/s, but it won't fall below 1500. So, a 16-processor Origin can operate a 2 GB/s file system and use only 40-50% of its internal bandwidth. Obviously, many many configurations of processors, channels, disks and network devices are possible. When configuring a bandwidth-oriented file server, we shoot for 1/3 bandwidth for the disks, 1/3 for the network, and the rest for software. These are just rules of thumb, but indicate the kind of thought process that should be applied. Sorry for the long message, but I detected some basic misunderstandings of what this hardware and software can do. g -- Greg Chesson From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 13:42:56 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA55610 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:42:56 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA99821 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:42:08 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA93706; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:41:14 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: from elenuial.atlsci.com (elenuial.atlsci.com [209.151.14.9]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id NAA03429; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:41:11 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: (from pjlahaie@localhost) by elenuial.atlsci.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03620; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:38:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:38:44 -0500 (EST) From: To: Greg Chesson cc: Ariel Faigon , Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: <9811251324.ZM24100@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1878 Lines: 37 On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Greg Chesson wrote: > But the memory subsystem is ccNUMA. That means any channel in the system > can read/write any memory in the system. With io buffers that comprise > multiple pages, and with the pages of the buffer located on several different > memory controllers, multiple io channels can burst (in parallel) to the > "array" of pages that comprise the buffer. Except some of this has to go through the CrayLink. The memory you are "bursting" to is not on the same node. Therefore, if you have a dual-threaded application that runs over the data, at most the max bandwidth is 1.6GB/s (seeing as it's advantagous to spread your code to two nodes and split the memory between them). If you application can make use of all processors on that box, then you get the full bandwidth. The most any single processor in that Origin can handle is 800MB/s and if it needs to get that data, eventually that data is shoveled through the CrayLink (and hopefully is gets migrated there). Is there anything flawed with this reasoning? > file system buffer cache. These are direct-io transfers between the channel > and user-supplied buffers. It's not clear the Linux permits dma to a mapped > user page.... I get different opinions from folks. Nevertheless, large pages I don't see why it cannot be done. The page-cache/file system buffer cache are supposed to be merged. If you mmap that data, you should just get a pte pointing to that area in the page cache. > So, a 16-processor Origin can operate a 2 GB/s file system and use only > 40-50% of its internal bandwidth. Obviously, many many configurations > of processors, channels, disks and network devices are possible. But that bandwidth isn't single node bandwidth. No single node can do 4GB/s. All nodes need to use their local memory to achieve max bandwidth. - Paul From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 12:49:55 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA53635 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:49:55 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id MAA98618 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:49:05 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA91012; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:49:03 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from snowcrash.cymru.net (snowcrash.cymru.net [163.164.160.3]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id MAA06891; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:49:01 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from the-village.bc.nu (lightning.swansea.uk.linux.org [194.168.151.1]) by snowcrash.cymru.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA01776; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:48:40 GMT Received: by the-village.bc.nu (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0zimlz-0007U1C; Wed, 25 Nov 98 21:46 GMT Message-Id: From: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Subject: Re: help offered To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:46:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: galibert@pobox.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> from "Ariel Faigon" at Nov 25, 98 12:37:36 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 716 Lines: 30 > :Linux 2.1.* is very preemtible, even if there are stil some things to > :do. Umm > : > > Interesting. Could you elaborate on: > > 0) What was changed in recent Linux kernels > to support preemtibility in kernel space? Nothing > 1) Which "serious" (i.e not 'getpid') system calls are > now reentrant ? signals, scheduling related stuff > 2) What still remains to be done so Linux can really > scale before it gets bottlenecked by kernel locks ? Actually it scales fine to 4 CPUs for most stuff on Intel. The pieces that dont scale are memory intensive and the intel hardware doesnt scale either 8) But from a theoretical point of view the page cache, vm and fs layers dont scale. Alan From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 14:00:45 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA54121 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:00:45 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA66055 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:59:39 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from xtp.engr.sgi.com (xtp.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.34]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id NAA98138; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:59:37 -0800 (PST) mail_from (greg@xtp.engr.sgi.com) Received: by xtp.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id NAA24159; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:57:05 -0800 From: "Greg Chesson" Message-Id: <9811251357.ZM24157@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:57:05 -0800 In-Reply-To: "Re: help offered" (Nov 25, 4:38pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: Subject: Re: help offered Cc: Ariel Faigon , Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2793 Lines: 70 On Nov 25, 4:38pm, wrote: > Subject: Re: help offered > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Greg Chesson wrote: > > > But the memory subsystem is ccNUMA. That means any channel in the system > > can read/write any memory in the system. With io buffers that comprise > > multiple pages, and with the pages of the buffer located on several different > > memory controllers, multiple io channels can burst (in parallel) to the > > "array" of pages that comprise the buffer. > > Except some of this has to go through the CrayLink. The memory you there are 8 IO links in the example I gave plus numerous Craylinks - I think it's 16 for the example. The bandwidth definitely does not go down a single link. > are "bursting" to is not on the same node. Therefore, if you have a > dual-threaded application that runs over the data, at most the max > bandwidth is 1.6GB/s (seeing as it's advantagous to spread your code to the application in the example is single-threaded. Lot's of people just want a bigpipe and a single file descriptor. > two nodes and split the memory between them). If you application can make > use of all processors on that box, then you get the full bandwidth. The a single-thread app can easily malloc pages from all the processor slots on the box. Can't do that in a cluster or a shared-nothing machine. You can think of processor slots as just extra memory controllers. For some applications we ship with "sparse" processor nodes for just this purpose. > most any single processor in that Origin can handle is 800MB/s and if it > needs to get that data, eventually that data is shoveled through the > CrayLink (and hopefully is gets migrated there). Is there anything flawed > with this reasoning? The single processor limit is set by the memory controller bandwidth. It can peak at over 600 MB/s, but 500 MB/s is a good number for sustained random access ops. > > I don't see why it cannot be done. The page-cache/file system buffer > cache are supposed to be merged. If you mmap that data, you should just > get a pte pointing to that area in the page cache. ok. > > But that bandwidth isn't single node bandwidth. No single node can do > 4GB/s. All nodes need to use their local memory to achieve max bandwidth. > we do make systems where single node bandwidth is many gigabytes/sec. They're called vector supercomputers. The max amount of memory on a motherboard is 4 GBytes, I think. In order to get a bigger memory, more processors must be added. Do you want to criticize that, too? The "beauty" of the ccNUMA memory architeture is that by using off-the-shelf memory circuits, both bandwidth and capacity can be aggregated in a modular way and still be mapped into a coherent virtual address space. g -- Greg Chesson From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 14:09:33 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA57212 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:09:32 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA26967 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:08:40 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from fir.engr.sgi.com (fir.engr.sgi.com [150.166.61.141]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id OAA20674; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:08:37 -0800 (PST) mail_from (wje@fir.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from wje@localhost) by fir.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA23040; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:08:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:08:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199811252208.OAA23040@fir.engr.sgi.com> From: "William J. Earl" To: Cc: Greg Chesson , Ariel Faigon , Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: References: <9811251324.ZM24100@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2152 Lines: 38 pjlahaie@atlsci.com writes: > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Greg Chesson wrote: > > > But the memory subsystem is ccNUMA. That means any channel in the system > > can read/write any memory in the system. With io buffers that comprise > > multiple pages, and with the pages of the buffer located on several different > > memory controllers, multiple io channels can burst (in parallel) to the > > "array" of pages that comprise the buffer. > > Except some of this has to go through the CrayLink. The memory you > are "bursting" to is not on the same node. Therefore, if you have a > dual-threaded application that runs over the data, at most the max > bandwidth is 1.6GB/s (seeing as it's advantagous to spread your code to > two nodes and split the memory between them). If you application can make > use of all processors on that box, then you get the full bandwidth. The > most any single processor in that Origin can handle is 800MB/s and if it > needs to get that data, eventually that data is shoveled through the > CrayLink (and hopefully is gets migrated there). Is there anything flawed > with this reasoning? There is not a single CrayLink. Each router port is a CrayLink. There are many CrayLinks if you have many nodes, so the aggregate bandwidth scales. If you want to do some real processing on all of the data, you will need more processors that would be required to simply read it into some processor cache anyway, so the node bandwidth is unlikely to be the limiting factor. When you add processors, you get more aggregate bandwidth. ... > > So, a 16-processor Origin can operate a 2 GB/s file system and use only > > 40-50% of its internal bandwidth. Obviously, many many configurations > > of processors, channels, disks and network devices are possible. > > But that bandwidth isn't single node bandwidth. No single node can do > 4GB/s. All nodes need to use their local memory to achieve max bandwidth. Yes. The point of the operating system is to spread the load of processing, I/O, and networking over the complete system, not create bottlenecks at a particular node card. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 14:13:11 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA55598 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:13:10 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA26087 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:12:20 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA88334; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:12:12 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: from elenuial.atlsci.com (elenuial.atlsci.com [209.151.14.9]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id OAA06479; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:12:09 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: (from pjlahaie@localhost) by elenuial.atlsci.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03640; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:09:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:09:42 -0500 (EST) From: To: Greg Chesson cc: Ariel Faigon , Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: <9811251357.ZM24157@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 785 Lines: 21 On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Greg Chesson wrote: > we do make systems where single node bandwidth is many gigabytes/sec. > They're called vector supercomputers. I wasn't criticizing anything or anyone. Just trying to get more information. Considering I had questions our SGI Tech/Salesmen combo could not answer. > The max amount of memory on a motherboard is 4 GBytes, I think. > In order to get a bigger memory, more processors must be added. > Do you want to criticize that, too? No need to take anything personal. I'm just asking for information and you guys get jumpy. I have nothing bad to say about the O2k hardware, I'm just curious about it's architecture and how exactly "bandwidth" is measured, since it's not as straightforward as in an SMP system. - Paul From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 14:13:13 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA58027 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:13:12 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA07671 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:13:07 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from vostok.engr.sgi.com (vostok.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.39]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA30128; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alexvk@vostok.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from alexvk@localhost) by vostok.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA07424; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) From: alexvk@vostok.engr.sgi.com (Alex Kozlov) Message-Id: <199811252213.OAA07424@vostok.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: from "pjlahaie@atlsci.com" at "Nov 25, 98 03:51:54 pm" To: pjlahaie@atlsci.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:13:03 -0800 (PST) Cc: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, galibert@pobox.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com WWW-page: http://robotics.stanford.edu/~alexvk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 635 Lines: 19 pjlahaie@atlsci.com wrote: > > I was under the impression the O2k memory bandwidth was limited to > ~800MB/s. If so, even if you can read 4GB/s what are you foing to do with > it? It would have to go over the CrayLink "network" and that doesn't do > 4GB/s. The only way I can see 4GB/s disk throughput is multiple of the > node accessing "local" drives and adding all the bandwidth together. > I thought craylink is 6 GB/s: cl0: flags=4041 inet 192.0.2.113 netmask 0xffffff00 speed 6.40 Gbit/s Is it not true in practice? -- Alexander V. Kozlov | alexvk@engr.sgi.com | (650) 933-8493 From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 14:19:42 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA58541 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:19:42 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA21270 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:18:25 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA27317; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:18:20 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: from elenuial.atlsci.com (elenuial.atlsci.com [209.151.14.9]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id OAA00399; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:18:17 -0800 (PST) mail_from (pjlahaie@elenuial.atlsci.com) Received: (from pjlahaie@localhost) by elenuial.atlsci.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03647; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:15:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:15:47 -0500 (EST) From: To: Alex Kozlov cc: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, galibert@pobox.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: <199811252213.OAA07424@vostok.engr.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 313 Lines: 14 On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Alex Kozlov wrote: > I thought craylink is 6 GB/s: ^^^^ > > cl0: flags=4041 > inet 192.0.2.113 netmask 0xffffff00 > speed 6.40 Gbit/s ^^^^ Those a bits, not bytes. So 6.40Gb is 0.8GB/s. - Paul From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 14:26:25 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA58136 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:26:25 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA19286 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:25:33 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from fir.engr.sgi.com (fir.engr.sgi.com [150.166.61.141]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id OAA39193; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) mail_from (wje@fir.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from wje@localhost) by fir.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA23152; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:25:24 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:25:24 -0800 Message-Id: <199811252225.OAA23152@fir.engr.sgi.com> From: "William J. Earl" To: alexvk@vostok.engr.sgi.com (Alex Kozlov) Cc: pjlahaie@atlsci.com, ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, galibert@pobox.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered In-Reply-To: <199811252213.OAA07424@vostok.engr.sgi.com> References: <199811252213.OAA07424@vostok.engr.sgi.com> Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 764 Lines: 21 Alex Kozlov writes: > pjlahaie@atlsci.com wrote: > > > > I was under the impression the O2k memory bandwidth was limited to > > ~800MB/s. If so, even if you can read 4GB/s what are you foing to do with > > it? It would have to go over the CrayLink "network" and that doesn't do > > 4GB/s. The only way I can see 4GB/s disk throughput is multiple of the > > node accessing "local" drives and adding all the bandwidth together. > > > > I thought craylink is 6 GB/s: > > cl0: flags=4041 > inet 192.0.2.113 netmask 0xffffff00 > speed 6.40 Gbit/s > > Is it not true in practice? Yes, but I think the "4GB/s" was "4 gigabytes/second". The link is about 800 megabytes/second (6.4 gigabits/second). From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Wed Nov 25 14:58:51 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA53305 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:58:51 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA47404 for linux-list; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:57:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from xtp.engr.sgi.com (xtp.engr.sgi.com [150.166.75.34]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id OAA49316; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:57:53 -0800 (PST) mail_from (greg@xtp.engr.sgi.com) Received: by xtp.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id OAA01246; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:57:52 -0800 From: "Greg Chesson" Message-Id: <9811251457.ZM1244@xtp.engr.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:57:51 -0800 In-Reply-To: "Re: help offered" (Nov 25, 5:09pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: Subject: Re: help offered Cc: Ariel Faigon , Olivier Galibert , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 235 Lines: 10 no problem, I apologize for being jumpy. When you're married to an english teacher you can easily learn to read too much into someone's choice of words (because that's what literary criticism is all about.... :-) g -- Greg Chesson From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 26 00:01:28 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id AAA84108 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:01:28 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id AAA57791 for linux-list; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:00:18 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id AAA61286 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:00:16 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from x.fra.se (x.fra.se [193.12.220.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via SMTP id AAA05218 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:00:07 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from fra.se by x.fra.se via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for id JAA01966; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:06:49 +0100 Message-ID: <365D0C17.73AB1509@fra.se> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:06:48 +0100 From: "Torbjörn Gannholm" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP12) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com" Subject: GNU/Hurd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1053 Lines: 28 Have you ever considered the GNU/Hurd for SGI? It has some good points: 1) It is designed to be 100% reentrant from scratch and is also heavily multithreaded. 2) Basic kernel is minuscule. 3) Added functionality (files, memory, authorization, scheduling, etc) comes from "servers" which can be replaced at will or even have different ones running at the same time. The point is you can easily have a mix of proprietary/freeware/own-design for different functionalities. Different tasks with conflicting interests could run against different servers and, above all, totally ignore unused servers. 4) According to the developers it is extremely stable, errors never resulting in anything worse than an interruptible hang. A possible minus is the message-passing between the servers which might be time-consuming. Still, my feeling is that this could be a real winner on flexibility and performance. Any comments? -- /Torbjörn This message is a personal message from Torbjörn Gannholm and does not necessarily represent the opinion of my employer. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 26 04:29:37 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA92306 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:29:37 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id EAA95422 for linux-list; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:28:49 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA01664; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:28:44 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (cs7-7.modems.unam.mx [132.248.134.78]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id EAA00071; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:28:41 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01602; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:28:37 -0600 Message-ID: <19981126062837.A1134@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:28:37 -0600 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Ariel Faigon , Olivier Galibert Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered References: <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2 In-Reply-To: <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com>; from Ariel Faigon on Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:37:36PM -0800 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1152 Lines: 33 On Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:37:36PM -0800, Ariel Faigon wrote: > :Linux 2.1.* is very preemtible, even if there are stil some things to > :do. > > Interesting. Could you elaborate on: > > 0) What was changed in recent Linux kernels > to support preemtibility in kernel space? I think people are confusing the terms reentrant and preemptible. > 1) Which "serious" (i.e not 'getpid') system calls are > now reentrant ? The large majority of the ``small stuff'' is now reentrant, that means signals, interrupts, stuff like getpid. Many subsystems or structures are nowadays protected by there own locks and no longer by the big evil lock-everything kernel lock. > 2) What still remains to be done so Linux can really > scale before it gets bottlenecked by kernel locks ? The big ones which still need a lot of work are - VFS and lower layers are protected by the big kernel lock. - bottom half handlers run on only one CPU. - socket code is protected by the big kernel lock It's 2.3 work, don't expect it to happen any day soon. If you're interested in more details, grep the kernel for lock_kernel / unlock_kernel. Ralf From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 26 04:14:57 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA91760 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:14:56 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id EAA01677 for linux-list; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:13:00 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA66955 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:12:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from snowcrash.cymru.net (snowcrash.cymru.net [163.164.160.3]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id EAA07168 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:12:48 -0800 (PST) mail_from (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) Received: from the-village.bc.nu (lightning.swansea.uk.linux.org [194.168.151.1]) by snowcrash.cymru.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA13547; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:12:11 GMT Received: by the-village.bc.nu (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0zj1Bg-0007U2C; Thu, 26 Nov 98 13:10 GMT Message-Id: From: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Subject: Re: GNU/Hurd To: torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se (Torbjörn Gannholm) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:10:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-Reply-To: <365D0C17.73AB1509@fra.se> from "Torbjörn Gannholm" at Nov 26, 98 09:06:48 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 535 Lines: 13 > A possible minus is the message-passing between the servers which might > be time-consuming. "Yesterdays technology, next week" to quote an OSI saying > Still, my feeling is that this could be a real winner on flexibility and > performance. Any comments? If you want a pre-emptible OS core its not HURD. Being pre-emptible without deadlocks or other interesting suprises is a very very hard problem. Consider things like disk sorting algorithms when you have 40 blocks for a low pri process queued up with 2 for a real time one. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 26 14:16:21 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA34831 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:16:21 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA16665 for linux-list; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:15:41 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA95901; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:15:38 -0800 (PST) mail_from (miguel@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx) Received: from metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx (metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx [132.248.29.92]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id OAA03747; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:15:36 -0800 (PST) mail_from (miguel@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx) Received: (from miguel@localhost) by metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA30111; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:17:43 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:17:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199811262217.QAA30111@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> From: Miguel de Icaza To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com CC: galibert@pobox.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com In-reply-to: <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Subject: Re: help offered X-Home: is where the cat is References: <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 303 Lines: 11 > 1) Which "serious" (i.e not 'getpid') system calls are > now reentrant ? Very few and neither the file system layer nor the networking layer have been properly fine-grain locked for this task to make sense. Linux is still far from competnig with IRIX and Solaris in this field. Miguel. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 26 18:48:05 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA38278 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:48:04 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA84361 for linux-list; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:47:25 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA34138 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:47:20 -0800 (PST) mail_from (rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via SMTP id SAA09445 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:47:19 -0800 (PST) mail_from (rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA16371; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:46:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:46:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Torbjörn Gannholm cc: "linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com" Subject: Re: GNU/Hurd In-Reply-To: <365D0C17.73AB1509@fra.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 331 Lines: 11 Got some numbers to go with that? ron Ron Minnich |"Using Windows NT, which is known to have some rminnich@sarnoff.com | failure modes, on a warship is similar to hoping (609)-734-3120 | that luck will be in our favor"- A. Digiorgio ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Thu Nov 26 23:19:19 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA52770 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:19:18 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id XAA50787 for linux-list; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:18:36 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA13088 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:18:33 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from x.fra.se (x.fra.se [193.12.220.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via SMTP id XAA01446 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:18:31 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from fra.se by x.fra.se via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) id IAA04135; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:24:36 +0100 Message-ID: <365E53B2.8CD17246@fra.se> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:24:35 +0100 From: "Torbjörn Gannholm" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP12) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ron G. Minnich" CC: "linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com" Subject: Re: GNU/Hurd References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 270 Lines: 17 Ron G. Minnich wrote: > Got some numbers to go with that? > ron > Sorry, no. I've only read about what the design ambition is. -- /Torbjörn This message is a personal message from Torbjörn Gannholm and does not necessarily represent the opinion of my employer. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 27 00:15:52 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id AAA53005 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:15:52 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id AAA22023 for linux-list; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:15:11 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id AAA32956 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:15:08 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from x.fra.se (x.fra.se [193.12.220.1]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via SMTP id AAA07132 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:15:05 -0800 (PST) mail_from (torbjorn.gannholm@fra.se) Received: from fra.se by x.fra.se via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) id JAA04177; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:21:20 +0100 Message-ID: <365E60FE.F12615EC@fra.se> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:21:19 +0100 From: "Torbjörn Gannholm" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP12) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox CC: "linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com" Subject: Re: GNU/Hurd References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1881 Lines: 47 Alan Cox wrote: > > A possible minus is the message-passing between the servers which might > > be time-consuming. > > "Yesterdays technology, next week" to quote an OSI saying Possibly, but maybe Unix and Linux also are yesterdays technology in some sense, but cooperative development is the future (and a small bit of the present) and I think it's sad that science is held back because of money and prestige (Although, mind you, I don't mind paying for software and giving credit where it's due, but I want to know what it does and be able to change it if I think I can do something better). > > > > Still, my feeling is that this could be a real winner on flexibility and > > performance. Any comments? > > If you want a pre-emptible OS core its not HURD. Being pre-emptible without > deadlocks or other interesting suprises is a very very hard problem. Consider > things like disk sorting algorithms when you have 40 blocks for a low pri > process queued up with 2 for a real time one. Actually, for the most part I couldn't care less about preemptible or real-time. I just want to get maximum cream out of my system (scaled to a zillion cpus), and I want it to run until I kill it. Maybe I'm being boring, but to watch video I use a TV, to listen to music I use a HiFi, reality is a lot more interesting than virtual, and to run a nuclear power station I have dedicated machines. And if I did want to use my computer for any of this I could probably load the appropriate mechanisms if they existed and everything else is nicely designed. IMHO, maybe preemptibility is a fix rather than a solution and the solution lies in another dimension. But still, why wouldn't some implementation of HURD (or mach) be able to be preemptible? -- /Torbjörn This message is a personal message from Torbjörn Gannholm and does not necessarily represent the opinion of my employer. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 27 15:02:23 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA79011 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:02:23 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA98006 for linux-list; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:01:25 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA98022; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:01:21 -0800 (PST) mail_from (Olivier.Galibert@loria.fr) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id PAA04761; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:01:19 -0800 (PST) mail_from (Olivier.Galibert@loria.fr) Received: from renaissance.loria.fr (renaissance.loria.fr [152.81.4.102]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.8.7/8.8.7/8.8.7/JCG) with ESMTP id XAA26206; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:59:20 +0100 (MET) Received: (from galibert@localhost) by renaissance.loria.fr (8.8.2/8.8.2) id XAA20211; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:59:18 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981127235918.A20200@loria.fr> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:59:18 +0100 From: Olivier Galibert To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de, Ariel Faigon Cc: linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered Mail-Followup-To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de, Ariel Faigon , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com References: <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> <19981126062837.A1134@uni-koblenz.de> <19981126085407.A2201@uni-koblenz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981126085407.A2201@uni-koblenz.de>; from ralf@uni-koblenz.de on Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 08:54:07AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 435 Lines: 13 On Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 08:54:07AM -0600, ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote: > On Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 06:28:37AM -0600, ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote: > > > The big ones which still need a lot of work are > > > > - VFS and lower layers are protected by the big kernel lock. > > Talked with Stephen Tweedie about this, it's considered a tough job to > multithread that right. Afaik, the main problem is avoiding deadlocks. Tough job. OG. From owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Fri Nov 27 18:46:39 1998 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA06718 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:46:38 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA31504 for linux-list; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:45:23 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (sgi.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.37]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA10592; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:45:18 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: from lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (cs9-11.modems.unam.mx [132.248.134.50]) by sgi.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id SAA06658; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:45:11 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ralf@lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de) Received: (from ralf@localhost) by lappi.waldorf-gmbh.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01089; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:45:08 -0600 Message-ID: <19981127204507.E690@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:45:07 -0600 From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de To: Ariel Faigon , linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: help offered References: <19981125204900.A4692@loria.fr> <199811252037.MAA37649@oz.engr.sgi.com> <19981126062837.A1134@uni-koblenz.de> <19981126085407.A2201@uni-koblenz.de> <19981127235918.A20200@loria.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2 In-Reply-To: <19981127235918.A20200@loria.fr>; from Olivier Galibert on Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 11:59:18PM +0100 Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 677 Lines: 19 On Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 11:59:18PM +0100, Olivier Galibert wrote: > On Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 08:54:07AM -0600, ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 06:28:37AM -0600, ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote: > > > > > The big ones which still need a lot of work are > > > > > > - VFS and lower layers are protected by the big kernel lock. > > > > Talked with Stephen Tweedie about this, it's considered a tough job to > > multithread that right. > > Afaik, the main problem is avoiding deadlocks. Tough job. Not only, it has to be efficient and Linus has to like it. As things are right now only some of Stephen's work in that area was done with MT in mind. Ralf